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The Outfit and the Chicago Board of Trade

Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. Gary interviews Anjay Nagpal, producer, and host of the new limited series podcast Brokers, Bagmen, and Moles. Anjay’s documentary-style podcast tells the story of corruption at the Chicago Board of Trade. Chicago in the 1980s was a rock and roll economy. And in Chicago, corruption usually pays off.Ā  When illegal money is flowing, the Chicago Outfit smells it out. James (Jimmy) Kaulentis was a Chicago Mercantile Exchange trader looked up to by all the up-and-comers on the Board of Exchange. What they did not know was that Kaulentis was connected to Outfit heavies like Tony Spilotoro, Joe Lombardo, and Joe ā€œThe Builderā€ Andriacchi.

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Anjay Nagpal, GARY JENKINS

Hey, welcome Wiretappers out there. Good to be back here in the studio. I’ve got a special guest today on Anjay Nagpal. He’s formerly the Chief Content Officer at Braun studios. And he’s now moving into the world of podcasts. So he’s been in the movies, and now he’s moving into my realm into the podcast realm. Welcome on, Jay.

Anjay Nagpal 00:19
Hi, Gary, thanks so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here. Well, good.

I’ve listened to your podcast brokers bag, man and moles. And I find that most entertaining and most interesting, it’s a great story. That’s big. Like I like him, you know, big, sprawling kind of stories, like all my stories are yours, it and specifically just a mob story, you go outside of the mom or the outfit. But it’s a really interesting story. And you’ve been in the film industry for quite a while. And now you’re going into the audio or the podcast industry. And you’re going into the nonfiction podcast industry. And you’ve got several investigative pieces lined up. And this was the first one correct?

Anjay Nagpal 01:01
Yep, that’s correct. You know, I love podcasts. I love the audio format. And the way I look at it is, whether it’s a movie or a podcast, I want to be a part of telling really interesting stories, like you said, big stories, meaningful stories, and also kind of want to make movies and TV shows about the podcasts that we’re making. And to have these podcasts serve as kind of the intellectual property or we’re making the story and then we’re gonna go do something else with it. But making podcasts has been a blast, and I look forward to making a lot more.

No, I see. So like this one is about Hanky Panky and hijacks and corrupt activities at the Chicago Board of Trade. So then you might make a movie based on parts of this, because he couldn’t do the whole thing. Do our movie tell you that right now? It’s too big. But you would then take part of this and make it into a movie like the undercover that work there. And some of the characters that you ran into? Is that what you’re saying? Yeah, that’s exactly right. You got it. Interesting. That will be an interesting movie, because it’s a crazy story. So you’re connected to the Chicago outfit in this store. And it’s about the Chicago Board of Trade. So kind of give us a little taste of what an overview I guess what we’re going to talk about today and how does it connect to the outfit? Because you know, my guys, my wire tappers out there loves Chicago outfit. I got a ton of fans up in Chicago. I know a bunch of them. Personally, I’ve been up there on the Chicago mob tour on my motorcycle and met several guys. So tell us a little bit about what we’re going to talk about today.

Anjay Nagpal 02:33
Sure. Okay. First of all, you are the expert in this realm. I’ve listened to your show a bunch and you are like is that the authority? And so I look forward to speaking about the topic, because I know you know your stuff. And let’s maybe just high level explain what this podcast is about and what this FBI investigation is about just really a high level, I don’t think we need to, like you said, get into the intricate details. And then you’ll quickly understand how the Chicago outfit could find its way into this story, as it does have many things in Chicago, especially when there’s money around, right? Oh, yeah.

It’s there. Yeah, yeah. I

Anjay Nagpal 03:10
don’t know how to sniff out money or when it’s flowing. But this podcast brokers back when a moles is about what was at the time, the most expensive investigation in the history of the FBI. And the reason it was so expensive, is because it was designed to uncover futures brokers on the floor of the Chicago Board of Trade and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, who the FBI thought were stealing a ton of money from their customers, right. And just in general, how they thought that worked, was they said, they thought that all these customers from around the world really a lot of them were bankers and things like that would call down to the trading floor and say, hey, they want to make a trade. But those customers weren’t on the floor, right? There were somewhere else and the customer or the brokers on the floor that were handling their orders. The FBI thought were kind of manipulating them. They had fellow conspirators, who were they were trading with, they were ripping off the customer and kind of splitting the difference. Does that do a good enough overview of what we think? Yeah, basically skimming right from like their customers orders, taking a couple of bucks here and a couple of bucks there from their unwitting customers and giving them different prices on stuff than they actually traded. And there’s a bunch of different ways to cheat down there. And or there was, I should say, when the trading floors were operating, the rules were pretty loosely enforced. And the whole place made it pretty easy to put some dollars in your pocket that you shouldn’t. And so that was kind of the underlying thesis of the investigation and the FBI, pretty daringly, but for agents as undercover agents told them to pose as brokers and go into those trading pits and pretend to be a Chicago traitor, and even before any actual involvement with the outfit or the mafia. It’s kind of similar assignment to have to infiltrate Chicago trade There’s like it is the mafia, right? Because this is a closed society. Everyone knows everyone, and just showing up at the exchanges and try to slide right in next to people who have been there their whole lives and who all know each other. Right? That right, there is not an easy assignment for the FBI. And then they gotta learn how to trade and do all this stuff. So instantly, I knew this was an intriguing investigation. But what was the craziest part about it was that when I talked to traders about the investigation, they all told me it was a failure and a total waste of taxpayer money. And the FBI didn’t know what they were doing. But then he freed the government side of the story, they kind of say the opposite. They’re like, well, this reformed financial markets, it was totally successful. And so that pulled me in, and I wanted to figure out where the truth lies.

Interesting. Yeah, for an agent to fit in with that if they hadn’t ever done this kind of work before, they probably were had a hard time finding anybody that had really done that kind of work down on the floor of their trading floors, where they’re screaming and yelling, and nobody understands what’s going on down there and paint by seeing those images. Nobody understands what’s going on. And I told you before I had a guy ask a guy that used to work up there about how do you trade futures and get into that I’ll make big money. And he said, I’m not telling you, it’s like gambling. And so it’s like gambling going on, and all these characters that are in that. And to get in with that group. Undercover and fit in with them, get people to tell you stuff would be hard, you’d have to be a pretty heavy drinker, and probably a cocaine you ever get in with him? Tell us a little bit about their personal habits or personal lives of those traders on the floor?

Anjay Nagpal 06:35
Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s kind of all the things you think about all the cliches I mean, it’s funny, because yeah, definitely, there was a lot of drinking going on a ton. There are bars right there in the exchanges. And drugs are also very prevalent. I mean, a lot of these people made a lot of money and like to party, it’s kind of like classic Wall Street work hard play hard mentality, accept the kind of Chicago version with a little bit different flavor. But yeah, there was kind of a lot of partying and a lot of crazy behavior going on. And it wasn’t everyone, right? Obviously, there’s a fair amount of people that kind of do the job and went home, and we’re good family, people, but a lot of the younger guys are kind of just went at it really hard.

It was brats and beer and whiskey rather than caviar and champagne.

Anjay Nagpal 07:22
That’s right old style and malarkey.

Really, so I guess, tell us about how did the mafia I know you got one segment? How did the mafia get into this? I mean, what was their piece of it? I remember one guy knew this blato brothers and everybody Chicago was a big city, but yet it’s a small city in some ways. And a lot of people know each other. And they know who’s doing what. So tell us how that get into the mob?

Anjay Nagpal 07:52
Well, I’m glad you said that, too, because that’s a big part of our shows. And in fact, that was on one of our shows called the biggest small town in the world. Yeah. And we really kind of set the table for the series because it is that right? It’s like, yeah, there might be a couple 1000 people on the floor. But it is kind of like everyone knows everyone somehow. And that was one of my first things like I was a trader for a few years, much after this happened, like 15 years after this investigation. So things have changed a lot. But it was still like, everyone knew everyone, and I’m just kind of like, I don’t understand how this is possible. But you know, a lot of this is like people treated it like a family business. So there’s multi generations of traders, right, two or three generations, dating back to the 1800s. So people get that kind of wealth, they get those kind of positions, and they keep it in the family. And then as they started these exchanges grew a lot in the 70s and 80s, because they really grew from agricultural exchanges, to financial exchanges. And then there’s just a lot more business and a lot of people brought in their friends, right. And so going to the mafia part of it, there were a lot of traders of Italian descent, first and foremost, and especially as they expanded, the a lot of them brought in their friends and family. And one specific example of that in episode seven. It’s about a trader, a really prolific trader named Louis Borsalino. And he was in the s&p 500 futures pit, which that’s a big pet. It’s a couple of 100 people in there, he was the biggest trader in there for a while, or one of the biggest. And he tells a funny story where as the exchanges were growing, he kept bringing his friends from the neighborhood, a lot of Italian friends, and a whole section in the pit. They called Little Italy. He’s a great storyteller that episodes a lot of fun. And he makes some great revelations in it. But that was kind of it. It was like a couple of them got in there. And they started bringing their friends. Because what was crazy about these exchanges is there wasn’t really much of a barrier to entry to get in like you didn’t have to have a finance degree or an MBA or ticket series seven or series 63 or any of these kinds of other qualifications that you have for a lot of Wall Street jobs and a lot of trading jobs. And so who are you going to bring down there, but your friends and so that’s kind of how it grew. And I’m happy to talk more about Borsalino in that episode, because it’s really fascinating.

Yeah, let’s hear a little more about that mom always has money to wash to clean up a little bit. Did you have any examples of that? For example, I mean, but by then CTRs ran the case transaction records. So you couldn’t just bring a big bunch of cash down there and do it? Did you run into any examples of that washing dirty money through

Anjay Nagpal 10:28
that we’ve been looking for a lot, and it’s kind of the hardest part to prove. But one thing that we did uncover in our show is that, first of all, if you read about this investigation, there’s really not much on the internet. Like if you go to Wikipedia, it doesn’t exist. These operations were called Operation Sour Mash and Operation Hedge Clipper. One. One was at the American, the others, the Board of Trade. So there’s two. And it’s not a lot of records there. But all the public record talks about is looking for brokers, cheating their customers. And the more I kind of talked to people down there, especially some kind of Mafia related folks, yeah, money laundering came up, we heard a couple mentions, read a couple of mentions of money laundering in trial transcripts, and old newspaper articles. But there wasn’t anything tangible there. But the more we talk to people, and since found some evidence and some FBI files that we received with a FOIA request, that will be revealed. And then some trial transcripts, we have confirmed that the FBI certainly was investigating mafia activity and the potential of money laundering on the floor. And that’s never before been publicly revealed. So part of this case really was about looking for mafia activity on the floor of the exchange. And if you think about it, like, that’s a pretty crazy statement that I don’t know of any other cases that involve the interaction of brother to Chicago outfit or any mafia, and like inside of our financial markets, right. So it’s a landmark case for that.

Now, give us an example of outfit involvement. How would that work?

Anjay Nagpal 12:08
Sure. I mean, first of all, there’s a lot of clean outfit involvement. And what I mean by that is, for example, the gentleman I brought up earlier, who was Borsalino, he did not in his father was a hitman for the mafia and enforcer, and that’s public, and he was actually murdered when Lewis was a teenager, I believe, and it’s really kind of heart wrenching story. We talked about that in our episode. Like Lewis has always said, I’m not going to be involved in that activity. I’m choosing a different path and life. And so whether it was him or others, there was a lot of, let’s say, sons, nephews, and people like that on the floor that had those mafia ties, like like one person removed whether it was their brother. So for example, the Spilotro is Anthony Michaels. blato. Were never at the exchanges, but they had a brother, who believe it was. His name is escaping me right now. Oh, it’s Patrick Patrick. That’s what it was Patrick Spilotro. He was a trader for a little while. And he was sponsored to come down to the floor by a guy named Jimmy Kaulentis, who’s a pretty well known mob, associate friend, and he grew up with the splotch arrows. He was friends with both Anthony Michael, and he sponsored Patrick’s Spilotro to come down on the floor. He also I believe, employed to Spilotro net for us, I don’t know exactly which ones there were. So you had those kind of ties and you had these people all around, right. And so that kind of set the stage for the FBI looking into this and as well as the potential of activity to take place down there. And one thing that you alluded to like what kind of activity would be down there, while traders like to gamble, and so bookmaking operations, right. That’s one and then obviously, drugs, traders like to do drugs. So some of the things that were moneymakers for the outfit had traders as their customers. And so it’s not hard to make a leap to say, Okay, well, traders have money traders that like to gamble, and some of them like to do drugs. And so that’s kind of the connection right there.

I would imagine be some loan sharking, too because people are they got their ups and downs, because as my friend RJ said, it’s just like gambling. I’m not telling you about it. It’s like gambling. So every once awhile, somebody’s gonna lose big time. And you got a loan shark out there to step in. Did you run into any examples of that? Was that ever reported in any manner? And yeah,

Anjay Nagpal 14:33
there was actually one. And again, I haven’t been able to substantiate yet. But there was a pretty high level Mark executive that I had heard was some taking some loans to pay back some losses on trades and stuff and kind of disappeared for a while, and then reappeared. And so that definitely was all around as well. And so one actually, on that front, kind of another one of the revelations that came from our show, was that there was Borsalino got an episode seven, our show revolves around these kind of unanswered questions about this investigation. And one of them was like, what really started this? Like, how did the FBI ever know that this kind of stuff was going on in the floor? Right? Like, it’s not something you can easily have access to. You can’t just walk down there and see what’s going on. So how did they hear about it? Right? And in Episode Seven, Louis Borsalino tells us Well, first and foremost, the kind of conventional wisdom is that there’s a big agricultural company called Archer Daniels Midland, huge food processing company. The conventional wisdom was that they complain to the FBI. Hey, we’re getting ripped off down here. The FBI said, Well, they’re a big company, we’re gonna do something about it. What Louis Borsalino told us was two things first, that the FBI was wiring bookies and drug dealers around town as they do, especially in the 80s. And that they would hear over and over again on the wiretaps. Well, hey, oh, I lost 50 grand, don’t worry about it, I’ll pay you, I’ll steal it off the deck tomorrow. And what that that’s a term for I’ll steal it off the deck means I’ll rip off my customers like I have these customer orders. I’m going to rip off my customers. I’m going to put a bunch of money in my pocket. I’m going to use that to pay my gambling debts. Right. And so that was the first time anyone had ever heard that. And I was shocked to hear it. But it makes sense, right? Like, how would the FBI know what’s going on the floor while they’re hearing traders talk to bookies or the hearing traders talk to drug dealers. And in fact, at one point, Mr. Borsalino said that some of the bookies he would get calls from bookies every once in a while asking, Hey, this so and so is placing a big bet if he loses, is he good for it? You know? He said any? Yeah. So there’s a lot of that going on.

Interesting. I can see where that would happen. And it’s really hard to run down and prove and people are cagey. And no. And one of those episodes I listened to, I thought was really interesting. As any FBI investigation, you get somebody and you turn them, you try to find somebody that’s vulnerable in some manner, and turn them and nobody supposedly knows that they’ve been even approached with by the Bureau and they turned this guy wired him up. And he goes to one of the more flamboyant traders, and then tries to engage him in conversation about some little deal. That was priceless, that Oh, conversation.

Anjay Nagpal 17:21
Yeah, yeah, that was great. We did a reenactment that are based on the actual transcripts from the pit. And I mean, what a crazy situation, right? And to try to basically you try to get this guy to talk about these illegal trades. And the guy was just like, hey, I don’t know what you’re talking about. All those trades were illegal trades. Everything we’ve done has been aboveboard. I don’t know what I’m talking about. But that was also cut. I think one of the things that the FBI probably wasn’t anticipating was that a lot of these guys had, and maybe they weren’t college educated Ivy League educated, but some of them were pretty darn street smart. And so a lot of them didn’t talk, like you said, they got that kind of get a bunch of people to turn on each other. But a lot of them didn’t. That’s another thing that really hurt their investigation was that these guys have been listened to episode two and three with TiVo. And then he tells them to go bleep themselves and slams the DOJ and the FBI space. And I can’t imagine they were expecting that when they were talking about investigating our financial futures markets and financial markets.

Really, prices lie down that made a note of it here. There’s no story Dave ever trade we ever made was legitimate trade. Like, okay, he said it real strong boys do like this kind of conversations done. That was a good one.

Anjay Nagpal 18:42
Yeah, you couldn’t make that up. Right? Like, if you’re watching a TV show, and you saw that, you’d be like, Oh, that’s great writing right there. Yeah.

Yeah. You can’t make that guy that real stuff up. That’s interesting. I did that. And one of my documentary movies, I didn’t have the actual audio. But I had the transcript from it. So I had a couple actors, actors, they were talking about killing this guy and their different plans on how to kill him. And you can’t make that kind of real conversation up.

Anjay Nagpal 19:07
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. So where do you want to go next, Gary? And by the way, I didn’t even said but I’m a huge fan of your show. And I know that you are an absolute expert on the Chicago office and have written some books and made some documentaries about it. So

I appreciate that my stuff mainly about Kansas City and I’m not the expert. There’s real experts on the outfit. I just kind of have learned a lot from them over the years but I appreciate them. So I guess this border trade and the agents did any of the agents stick out to you? I know that a lot. I’m trying to do their best but tell us about one of the agents that stuck out to you a little bit about him.

Anjay Nagpal 19:47
Yeah, for sure. There’s five agents that we spoke to three on the record. And there was one in particular and I don’t know when this episode is going to air so I’m gonna hold back some spoilers but basis Luckily, there was one FBI agent in particular, who is the subject of Episode 11, who is kind of went above and beyond, right? They all did their jobs. And one thing I have to say is that going into this, I didn’t quite understand and kind of how hard of a job the FBI had, you know, and I gained a lot of respect for what they did. But this agent in particular, he kind of knew that the investigation was challenged, right, all the things that we talked about, like getting people to cooperate, gaining their trust, even just being able to prove in court that hey, this trade was illegal, it was hard. And so this guy kind of went above and beyond in a way that his mindset was like, I’m just going to try to get as many people as possible to do illegal things and talk about illegal things, because that will just show this like massive pattern of corruption, and that these traders are all susceptible to committing crimes, and that they’re all in this environment of lawlessness, basically. So some of the things he did were. Yeah, if you think about how did Al Capone go down, right, that didn’t catch him murdering someone, he went down for tax evasion, right? And so these kind of like really smart tricks and schemes to kind of pull people into that, well, now we got you’re doing something illegal, right? Whether it’s tax evasion, whether it’s gambling, whether it’s whatever it it’s a really interesting mindset that he wants to do that and I get it, like he wants to do his job. And he knew that there was theft going on down there, and that people were playing fast and loose with the rules and but he also knew that he had a really hard job. And so wanting to do whatever it took to get the job done, one of the other agents said of him, hate if you told him to run through a brick wall for the FBI, he’d do it in a second.

I remember guys like that. We had said, we were gonna take some guys in one of our SWAT team. And I was one of the sergeants. And so there’s one guy who interviewed in front of us. And then he left and one of the other sergeants. He said, That’s the kind of guy if you tell him to break out a plate glass window with his head, and then take his neck and go all around and clear out all extra glass in the window. He’d do it. That guy? Interesting. Well, I tell you what, it’s a great podcast, I’m trying to think there must be something else. Of course, anything else you want to go here?

Anjay Nagpal 22:17
There’s a couple of other things we can talk about. I think just in terms of interesting characters, I mean, first and foremost, we talked about a character kind of throughout the show, a man named Jimmy Kaulentis who you I think you mentioned very briefly at the beginning. And we heard all kinds of rumors about him. And there was speculation that the FBI was trying to take down his brokerage firm. And so there’s kind of if you piece together over time, you can kind of see that his association with the splotch of brothers, as well as we found some blogs online that talk about him, shaking down traders, he had this supposedly had this whole scheme where he would go up to traders and say, Hey, man, I think the exchange saw you doing some Cricut trades, and they’re gonna get you in trouble, like, I can talk to him, I can get you out of that trouble, but you gotta give me 50 grand, you gotta give me some money, and trying to shake some people down on the floor. Again, I haven’t been able to confirm that other than talking to people. And then another kind of thing that he and that company were accused of is like, and this is really interesting. It’s kind of where the lines blur between mafia like activity cartel, like activity and good business, right? Because like, one of the things they did was, when their exchange first started, all the brokers were just individuals, it’d be a broker, you can be a broker, we compete against each other. And then at some point, I believe in the late 70s, early 80s, they started having associations broker groups, like hey, why don’t we pool our resources, we’ll have people in different pets will have will just be a bigger business more diversified, all that kind of stuff. And then the way that brokers got paid was they got a fixed dollar amount for contract and that it changed over time. But if I filled one contract, let’s say I got $1.25, right? So hey, if I do 1000 contracts, today, I’m making $1,250. That’s good money. And so how do you compete? And how do you grow? So this company, abs partners that we talked about? There’s a lot of people have told me that one of the ways that they got bigger than they grew was through, basically discounting their brokerage fees, and giving kickbacks to those customers. So if there was someone at a hedge fund or a bank or something was using a different one of their competitors, these guys would walk over them and say, Hey, why don’t you use us will discount your brokerage, and we’ll give it back to you pay us the dollar 25 per contract, we’ll give you a little kickback under the table, a little envelope of cash at the end of the year, and kind of that’s the way they grew. In one hand. It’s like wow, it’s illegal, but the price was the price for commissions. But on the other hand, that’s how legal brokerage firms have grown over time. It’s like hey, yeah, gotta make trading cheap for people and that’s how you get more businesses price competition, right. So it was but not above board, but just really interesting kind of the gray area of business in the way that things happen down on the merch. And kind of the last thing I want to say about that is like the conclusion of our show, really, we talked about the big picture. Why was it such a gray area? Why were the rules? Why was it easy to cheat? Write in who made up these rules? And how did they get to be that way and how they get to stay that way. Because there certainly was technology and other ways to create a clear audit trail and make it harder to cheat make it harder to steal, but some reason that didn’t evolve as fast as it could have. And that’s kind of where we go to a lot towards the end.

Interesting, folks, the podcast is brokers, bagman, and moles hosted by MJ Nagpal. And I really appreciate you coming on the show and telling us about the Chicago outfit and their connection to the Chicago Board of Trade. And there’s two different operations Chicago Board of Trade. What was the other one?

Anjay Nagpal 26:00
It’s the Chicago Board of Trade and the Chicago Mercantile Exchange.

All right, great. Well, I really appreciate Okay, folks, and Anjay Nagpal of brokers bag, man and moles and new podcast. I’ll have a link to it down below. And is there anything else you want to promote here? And J or any other links I could put up to help you out?

Yeah, absolutely. There’s a couple of things I just mentioned briefly, I mean, first and foremost, when it comes to this, I’d love to chat with you again for a minute, but off the record or on because we have some more outfit stuff that we’re learning and that we’re kind of still working on. So there’s more to come when it comes to the outfit activity and broker’s back men and moles. Second of all, we also have a few other podcasts that are going to be based on or at least somewhat involving not only the outfit, but certain parts of the family secrets, investigation and trial and some of the people involved in that there’s one there about the Calabrese family. And then there’s another show about Milwaukee and the Balistreri clan. So fascinating stories, all of them. So hopefully there’s more to talk about in the future.

Sounds like I’m kind of excited. Now. I haven’t done much on Milwaukee. And I’ve done I think one show a guy named Gavin Schmitt up there. But that Milwaukee connections needs to be looked at closer, they had some stuff going on. Plus her connection to the scale about Las Vegas as really are they is barely ever been reported anywhere. And they were really into big time.

Anjay Nagpal 27:29
Yep, yep. And we’ve got the stories and we’ve got some FBI archival recordings and wiretaps and all that stuff. And that’s gonna be a fun one. So I look forward to telling you more about it and can’t wait to share it with you and your audience.

Okay, MJ, I really appreciate you coming on the show.

Anjay Nagpal 27:45
Awesome. Thanks so much, Gary. It’s been a blast. Appreciate it.

Okay, you guys know that I like to ride motorcycles. So watch out for motorcycles when you’re out there. And if you have a problem with PTSD, be sure and go to the VA website. If you’ve been in the service, and get that hotline number if you have problem with drugs or alcohol, our good friend and former Gambino guy, Anthony ruggiano worked in a treatment center down in Florida and on his website. He has a hotline number. So there you go. Thanks a lot guys. And the oh, I always forget to do this. Like and subscribe and give me a review or I don’t care. It’s just fun for me. You know what I mean? And Jay?

Anjay Nagpal 28:24
Yeah, absolutely, man. Thank you so much. Really, it’s been a lot of fun. And like I said, we got some stuff in the future that I can’t wait to talk to you about.

Be sure and keep me up on that. If I don’t get to you first. Let me know. All right. Thanks a lot, AJ.

Anjay Nagpal 28:37
Absolutely will do. Thank you.

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