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Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. Gary and Camillus “Cam” Robinson compare and contrast the lifestyles, management styles, and organizational abilities of Scarface Al Capone and The Dapper Don, John Gotti.
Overview
Al Capone and John Gotti are two of the most infamous figures in the history of the American Mafia. They both rose to power through their involvement in dealing in contraband, racketeering, murder, gambling, and other crimes. However, they also had notable differences in their personalities, styles, and fates. Here are some points of comparison and contrast between them:
Early Years
Al Capone was born in Brooklyn, New York 1899, to Italian immigrants from Naples. He dropped out of school at 14 and joined a street gang led by Johnny Torrio, a mentor who later brought him to Chicago. John Gotti was also born in Brooklyn, New York, in 1940 to Italian-American parents with roots in Naples. He also dropped out of school at 16 and became involved in various gangs and criminal activities.
Rise to Power
Al Capone became the boss of the Chicago Outfit, one of America’s most powerful crime syndicates, after he orchestrated the murder of his rival, Big Jim Colosimo, in 1920. He expanded his empire by eliminating or allying with other gangs, bribing public officials, and controlling all bootlegging activity and other Chicago illicit businesses. John Gotti became the boss of the Gambino crime family, the largest and most influential Mafia group in New York, after he ordered the assassination of his predecessor, Paul Castellano, in 1985. He consolidated his power by promoting loyal associates, intimidating rivals, and cultivating a public image as a charismatic and generous leader.
Publicity: Al Capone was known for his flamboyant lifestyle and lavish spending. He wore expensive suits, drove luxury cars, and frequented nightclubs and restaurants. He also donated money to charities and soup kitchens, earning him some popularity among the poor. He was often featured in newspapers and magazines as a celebrity gangster. John Gotti was also fond of dressing well and living large. He frequented social clubs, bars, and casinos, where he mingled with celebrities and politicians. He also enjoyed media attention and often gave interviews or made statements to reporters. He was nicknamed āThe Dapper Donā for his style and āThe Teflon Donā for his ability to evade prosecution.
Downfall
Al Caponeās downfall came because of his tax evasion. Despite being suspected of numerous crimes, he was never convicted of anything more severe than contempt of court until 1931, when he was found guilty of failing to pay taxes on his illegal income. He was sentenced to 11 years, where he contracted syphilis and suffered mental deterioration. He was released in 1939 and died in 19471. John Gottiās downfall came because his underboss, Sammy Gravano, turned government informant and testified against him. After being acquitted in three previous trials, he was convicted of murder and racketeering in 1992. A Court sentenced Gotti to life without parole, where he died of cancer in 2022. It should be noted that no Outfit members testified against Capone, while several Mafia members testified against Gotti.
Don’t forget to look at Chicago Swan Song: A Mob Wife’s Story, co-written by Camillus with Lisa Swan, the wife of Frank Calabrese Jr., about her life in the Calabrese Crew.
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Transcript
GARY JENKINS 00:00
Welcome all you Wiretappers, good to be back here in studio Gangland Wire, I’ve got my good friend. Camullius “Cam” Robinson. Welcome Cam. Hey Gary doing. It’s been a while since you’ve been on you’ve, you’ve moved, had some changes in your life. But we’re really glad to have you back and get you back in the mix here. Do some more Chicago stories with you because you’re my man in Chicago, you know that? I am.
Camillus Robinson 00:25
I appreciate it. Gary, you are my rabbi and I am always here. I’m always here. If I can be of assistance.
GARY JENKINS 00:32
Good. You know, today, guys, we came up with this idea. And I thought it was kind of a fun idea. For a show. Let’s compare and contrast. John Gotti and Al Capone, you know, the two, arguably the two most Wouldn’t you say? Can the two most well known mafia figures in the United States in all of history? I would say
Camillus Robinson 00:56
Yeah. Yeah. For those of us in the you know, who really study something go after it. I mean, we sort of, kind of look askance at it, got it. But if you’re outside and you’re looking in if you’re just a casual model observer, then you know, Gotti and Al Capone. Those are the internet searches. I mean, if you’re not somebody who typically just looks at mafia Mobologists or whatever word you want to call it, then that’s right. That’s right. Definitely, definitely, Gary Capone and Gotti are the two that were most interested. I mean, they got those movies about them.
GARY JENKINS 01:31
Yeah, interesting. Yeah. popular media has paid the most attention. You know, I was I’ve always been Lucky Luciano kind of ranks up there. And I think they’ve kind of got cool names. And they’re easy to say names. And they’re easy to remember, they just think, you know, kind of like Roy Rogers or Mickey Mantle, you know, it gets real easy to say names. It’s so people remember that. But they weren’t flamboyant. And they had easy to say names and memorable names. So they were I think the newspaper people probably pumped them up a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. In their day, they were the darlings of the press, which is why they are now so well known, you know, looping and following Capone and the newspaper follow Gotti just because they would allow themselves to be followed. And that’s the you go. So let’s talk about you know, little compare and contrast, like Al Capone, in my opinion was much more successful a business wise than John Gotti ever was because he believed single handedly the whole Chicago outfit, which was, you know, they had what, at one time five major Crews maybe not as big as a five families. But Gotti as just, you know, ended up being the head of one of five families but and so what do you think about the comparison contrast? But there
Camillus Robinson 02:48
I think I think, you know, like, like we’ve talked about, I mean, Capone came along, when, when it was during a war time in Chicago, and really, it was his Iron Fist. And don’t get me wrong. There were a lot of brains behind the behind the brawn. He had real real power players working with him. But it was Capone, who Torrio chose and it was Capone who brought Chicago together and created that billion dollar industry of bootlegging in and spread into the unions and in basically controlling every aspect of Chicago, the city and then expanding West throughout the country. That was under Capone’s leadership and people want to want to denigrate them now or say, Well Capone this or more brains for breakfast, you know, whoever. There were some great leaders in the outfit. I’m not saying that. But Capone really led a hell of it out that is really much larger than anything God, he could have hoped for God he was handed basically the keys to the kingdom and he proceeded to tear it all down, built everything up. He did a component seemed like he knew the people to choose to run things while he sat on top. I don’t know whether it’s personal charisma. God, he had a lot of personal charisma. Capone must have had a lot of personal charisma to but he chose what was it was like, well, Tony Accardo to handle the walk and people around handle enforcement activities in our condo you know he goes on to be the boss and he picks the right people to move on up later on ball Rekha was kind of the interim boss really smart guy really quiet and and he had a lot of relationships with other people around the country and then he a got a breezy thumb Jake Guzik to handle a lot of that dealing with government agencies and he knew that you needed that guy to really, you know, deal with the governmental agencies and with the courts and get people in those positions. Got a you know, personally he never did anything like that. He, you know, he just basically, you know, depend on other people that have the contacts in the governmental, you know, the court systems and the police and all that. Yeah, yeah, the Gambino family definitely have the contacts under under under Gambino um and under under, under big bold, Ilana. But um, God he didn’t have that were with all he was more of a street guy and I think the bone wasn’t but Capone was smart enough to put the guys like Murray Humphries and Jake goes in. And Paul Ricca and frankly, the guys in position who knew how to get things done in that world, that was why the athlete was so successful politically, again, Vinos. Under under, Carlo, they really expanded had judges, they had politicians, they had all of that. God, he didn’t really see the value in that kind of thing as much. He just wanted people to kick up because he was gambling so much. He just wanted green money. And power to him was your ability to point and have somebody killed or to point have somebody hurt? And as Capone understood, there’s much more power than just the ability to take one guy out. Yeah. You know that. Just thinking that. My friend Bill allows the retired FBI ages we were talking about Jewish connections here in Kansas City. There’s in the gambling world there. They had several Jewish guys that really ran the gambling when it first guy going in on an internet or internet or a national basis. The race wire was big all across the United States. And Bill said yeah, I said the Italians brought supplied the muscle and the Jews supplied the brain. So Al Capone knew that he knew that and he was you know, they call it the outfit. We don’t call it the mafia. We call it the outfit because Marie Humphries was I think he was a Welshman. He was from England. Yeah. goos Act was a Jewish guy that Lenny Patrick and who else there was a Greek to Gus Alex and Patrick was Jewish and, and so there was a whole big Jewish connection to that were important people in the outfit or as with Gotti, you were either Sicilian or southern Italian of some kind. And you were La Cosa Nostra? And that was it. You know, it was a closed little society. He’d never thought outside that box at that close. La Cosa Nostra society? Absolutely. It was it was he was so seeped in mob mythology and, and you know, what, what was causing us what was like you said, what was the real? What was the mob thing to do? What was in Capone’s thinking wasn’t as tied in I mean, he was in the both of them as we’ll talk about word, Neapolitan. So that matters much more in Capone’s day where he just wasn’t going to be accepted by the Sicilians. And he didn’t care. So he associated with more people who’s more successful than most any mob boss as far as from a dollars and cents standpoint than any that I can think of. And that rejection in God, he felt it too. And I think that whereas Capone went off and did his own thing, because he wasn’t going to be accepted by Cosa Nostra in the United States. So he pushed on and built the outfit, whereas guarding was always going to be sort of looked down upon by the Sicilian, so that he felt a real insecurity and that insecurity drove him a lot within the bottom, he had to be the most popular, the most Cosa Nostra. So I think their responses to that sort of rejection, by different but by factions within their own group are very different. Capone was never going to be accepted, did his own thing great and much more successful route. Gotti was sort of looked down on in a way for his Neapolitans one. So he proved that he was the more Cosa Nostra than even the Sicilians. You know that. So that insecurity really sort of drove them. You know, and they learned when they when they caught a case, so to speak, they both had both had similar ways of trying to deal with it, they wanted to bribe a juror. So, Gotti actually did get one bribe on that one at first case for that. No, that woman, Jacqueline Jacomo or Jack, Giacalone.
GARY JENKINS 09:35
prosecuted, and they did bribe that guy $67,000. It was interesting. I did a story on that. And they, they said we have to have a totally anonymous jury. So what they did is they didn’t give the names of the jurors to and their addresses to either side so the prosecution didn’t have it either. And if they just had those names, they would at least is random through their computers to their intelligence indices. And they would have found that guy that they brought, they would have found his connections. Not that far apart. But since they didn’t get the the addresses why they they didn’t they really were unable to find them now Capone, great story on when he went to his big trial. They switch the jury out because they knew components people had been out, running their traps and getting people lined up that might be on that jury. And at the very last minute, they brought a jury down from another floor and just swapped him and I guess their jaws dropped down on the floor. You know, you’re in that minute, there’s only so much you can say it’s like, well, but that was the jury we bought, I mean, I want my money to do like you can’t ask for your money back. Yeah, cuz, you know, God is my understanding he had guys when those trials would get ready to start. They had guys out there watching trying to figure out who the people were that were gonna be in the jury pool and getting their license numbers and starting to figure out who they were as they were picking a jury and Capone he didn’t have to do all that probably because he had connections in the courthouse would already gotten a list of all the jurors that were gonna be on the jury so they probably made some money didn’t have to do a thing. Yeah, absolutely. So I you know, Gotti Capone was a little more national, gaudy. As we said, he’s pretty provincial. He didn’t he lived in that same little bungalow or a smaller house in Queens I believe. The Ozone Park his whole mob life he didn’t try to do like podcast lotto moved up into the big house in the suburbs or anything. And he stayed right there. He did get put on a big firework show for the neighbors every year is my understanding. He liked that being a big fish in a small pond. It seemed to me like we’re asked Capone, you know, all over Chicago. They knew him personally. Yeah, yeah. And he tight reached out everywhere in Chicago soup kitchens and going to baseball games and sitting on the front row and getting his kid introduced to Babe Ruth getting his picture taken with Babe Ruth. And you know, more of that said, Babe Ruth wasn’t a Chicago player. So there was more on a national basis had the big mansion down in Florida that they would go down to had Lucky Luciano and who Frank Costello were down there. And so he was he was more of a guy that that understood the bigger picture than God, he didn’t seem like God he ever understood wanted to be part of the bigger picture. No, I think that, you know, as we’re sort of talking when God he was a street guy, and when it came to know on the streets, he was very street smart. He really was I don’t know if anybody can compete in the in the, on that level with Gaudi as far as as far as what the rules of the street as a result, his crew was very successful. And God He was God. He was. I mean, he that’s how he became the bosses because I mean, his crew was so successful, and he was so street savvy, but he just wasn’t. He didn’t think on that level. It wasn’t like he said, I mean, he was in his enclave and he wanted his power and he wanted to stay there. And he just didn’t perceive the mob as a as a national entity. And he just he, I don’t something somebody like God, he would know what that meant, or what what to do with it. You know, guys like, Neil, the approach there was a reason he didn’t get the power in a big Paul did. I mean, Neil Dellacroce was sort of a national figure, but I mean, he was a street guy, and he knew it from criticism against big Paul. He didn’t know how to run an empire. He just was a little bit soft. And God he had no idea he just said no, he was, is that you know, the concert frame. He says, Are you Are you a gangster you rackets here. And for whatever truth there is to that God, he was just a gangster. Yeah. No racketeering at all about interesting I forgot about that saying that. Paul Castellano was a racketeer. He knew the value of the unions now Sammy the Bull Gravano understood that he was really involved in unions and with business kind of things where you can make money off a business but Gotti, he just cared about gambling and are you kicking up and crews out, you know, doing hijacking trucks and getting swag and the usual kinds of stuff extorting money from gambling networks that whatever they whoever they could extort money from bookies and barring the family, like it was a crew. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That’s one thing about Sammy the Bull. He did understand that if he did, he had his chance to go up instead of going into witness protection. Look out successfully as now on on YouTube. They said nothing more than that, you know, that guy knew how to he understood how to be successful. Not about how to be a gangster happy the toughest guy on the block. You know, he understood how to be successful. And Al Capone.
Camillus Robinson 15:13
Frank Decicco, Yeah, yeah Capone. And what were Capone where his deficits were, as we’ve talked about Gary, he put the people in position who didn’t know how those worlds and he didn’t know how to write clear who did know how to get in. I was composed strength is like you said was delegation? Yeah, the news cameras is a lot different. When Gotti was out there, he did play for the deuce cameras. They were always waiting for him. And when he was going in now, the courtrooms if you notice a lot of the pictures of Capone, he was like, you know as the baseball game or he was, you know, with other people he wasn’t, you know, at his mansion down in Florida. He didn’t try to play to that hole. I’m a gangster thing. He was just like, I’m more like, I’m a big time philanthropist. I’m an important member of this community businessman here in Chicago. And he used to tell people he was a businessman. He just supplied a product that people wanted. Yeah, I think you’re right. He would have seen he did see himself wars and businessman a bus prohibition was relatively new. So it’s hard for us to grasp. You know, it would be like if suddenly there were a legal move to ban alcohol nowadays. And if alcohol became banned, it’s not like everybody’s going to stop drinking. It would be just as it was to them as stupid law as it is to us. Yeah, it just had happened that there was a moral group that got in there and thought that that was the way the wind was blowing. And so while it was, but they the people during Prohibition, thought that law was stupid and useless as basically we would think. And the people who didn’t follow it, the poll really was just supplying something that had been withdrawn from market in all of the normal legal channels. In any other world, he would be businessman assistance, resilient, and yet still people. And he was flexible, too. He was flexible enough. When Prohibition ended, you know, the Alfia got right into that national, the wire for the sports for the horse racing results, because everybody liked to bet on horses. But yet, there wasn’t a place to bet on horses in Kansas City, the one a place to bet on horses, downstate, Illinois, or St. Louis or St. Louis had Sportsman’s park but, but throughout the United States, there’s a lot of places you couldn’t place a bet on a horse, unless you went to the track. And even in those big cities, you had to go to the track and everybody can’t go out to the track every day. So they, you know, they were part of that creating a national race wire. And then to make money off of that. That’s where the Jewish gangsters came in and was in Kansas City, particularly, and I’m sure in Chicago, when they established that national race wire the mob was, you know, taking a piece of that action all the time. Well, yeah. Yeah. You know, Chicago was in on it on taking over from Max Zandbergen in the beginning of the CP Annenberg year. But nowadays, I was Max Annenberg, a Jewish guy who had the new service and Chicago was instrumental in sort of seizing control that and setting up the sports world to begin with. So yeah, they really didn’t. I was initially under Capone. And then later on, they expanded it after his imprisonment, but you do see Gotti stopping and talking to the media and sort of slang and come back to what we were saying and smiling and straightening his tie. That clip that you posted the other day of Capone going to prison. I mean, he sort of jumps out of the car and bounds of the steps
Announcer 18:43
The King of the gangsters is about to get his and a lot of Chicago folks are on hand at Federal Court for a last look at Scarface Al Capone as they out him away. Here it comes. The big boy himself. What’s the hurry Al, where you are going you will have loads of time?
Camillus Robinson 19:05
He was aware of the power of the press, then the press loved him because he was this figure that sold newspapers but he wasn’t he wasn’t in it and talking to it as much as maybe a guy who was playing with it loves to be seen, and just happened to be a famous name.
GARY JENKINS 19:22
Interesting. I never thought about that. That scene where that had been Gotti, he would have been preening and been taking questions and making wisecracks with the media people as he went into the courtroom, which we’ve seen many times Al Capone jumps out of that car, ducked his head down and runs in. That was a good clip. Yeah, I don’t remember where I found that. I don’t know some kind of something in space. I can’t remember where it was actually. It was a good one. Let’s see what else is there. Other comparisons are there between the two? You know, as far as you know, going good working with Jewish guys that was so common. I don’t know that. Got he ever worked with any Jewish people at all other than to extort money from if they had some kind of action going their business going extort money from them, I don’t see that he had any partnership. I think maybe there was one heroin dealer that I don’t remember if he was Jewish or not. He might just been straight peckerwood that he was involved with and partied with that. He got that kind of secret heroin or cocaine money from him that he was getting. I think Al Capone probably I never heard of him dealing with narcotics at all, even on the on the sly. Although there were a lot of heroin dealing throughout the United States among the mafia during the 30s we had they were in Kansas City are one of our bar quirks about that brother of our boss he was took a bus to get pants for possession of heroin during the 30s. Ever heard of Capone his outfit being involved with the heroin trade surely they were you
Camillus Robinson 20:56
they have to be selling in the streets like Luciano had some contacts with guys who would bring it over and in the 30s and he would he set up in Italian guys who set up networks but for the most part that major Heroin connections that did pass through Chicago and through everywhere it was a little bit after Capone
GARY JENKINS 21:36
So and Gotti in a way, they were absolutely against it and he took money from it but it was on kind of on the on the down low so we wouldn’t get caught. One reason he had to kill podcast a lot was because his man was a uack quack Ruggerio within gene guide his brother was are all involved in it and they both took pinches for it. They took a to major Oh yeah, prison sentences for it. And Paul Castellano wanted copies of the wiretaps that Ruggerio had gotten in discovery. It was gonna show that he’d been dealing cocaine. So that was one reason Castellano had to go down and it was his either his longtime Goomba buddy, Angelo Ruggerioio or or Paul Castellano.
Camillus Robinson 22:25
That’s an interesting bringing up that story. You know, Capone was fiercely loyal to people you know, when there was a Jewish guy Joe Howard who who was smacked around Jake Guzik. Capone went down there on his own and beat the guy to death shot him they beat him near to death and then they shot him in the street. And Gotti if you crossed Gotti Are you a man and he would write you off period he was you know that sort of narcissistic personality where if you if you step on my toes I’m done with Ruggiero Ruggiero. He grew up with him. Best friends since childhood love the guy knew all his brothers Jean and Peter and they were really all grew up close friends knew his kids and all. And as soon as Ruggerio talking and said some unpleasant things about him on that tape about you know, God exists about it. The other that was it wouldn’t even visit them on his deathbed guy he grew up with mean Gotti had a habit of writing people off who got in his way or who insulted him. He couldn’t take any kind of an insult at all. He was he was Capone, on the other hand was he was so loyal to those around him. It was just their personality types differ so much, you know, just God he was was so small minded and like you said, it’s very provincial and he didn’t have that loyalty to people and you hear all those tapes talking about throwing bravado under the bus and that bravado take the heat and Gravano had been right there for him from the beginning. You would never hear Capone. People were fiercely loyal to Capone. I mean, when Capone took that pistol charge in Philly. Frank Rio went to prison with him just because they were so tight and Rio didn’t want him in there alone and, and he and Capone spent their time those nice prison cells together. But Capone never would have brought somebody down to save himself or throw somebody else to the wolves. It just he was he was very loyal to those around him and he loved those guys around him and he went to their weddings and all he didn’t see people as a means to an end. Always. I mean, he wanted to bring all these guys up with him. God he just wanted to promote himself and his own family and only do it his way not what was best for them but what he perceived to be the best.
GARY JENKINS 24:42
Interesting. Well, Capone inspired such loyalty that this guy took a pinch and went to the year with him in prison so he would would be with him interest that’s really interesting. Can you imagine that for God here for anybody? Good day. I think Gravano would have gone with him until he heard those tapes THIS GUY Yeah, well, you know, we’ll just throw sand you know, I mean Sammy was just about there but man yeah he would have he would have that’s the old FBI trick, there man I’ve seen that tried several times here where you get a, you get a little tidbit it makes it look like they’re talking bad mouth, you know, or they’re, you know, maybe even you know, once you’re getting bad mouthed by certain guys in the mob and a mob family you know, you you may be dead within a few weeks. And then you take that tape and you go play it to them. The, say, well, what do you think? And you know, some some people we had one guy said no, he said, I’ll handle it myself. And he never did get killed. I don’t know what happened to him, but he died a natural death. I’ll handle it myself. But that is an FBI trick that works a lot. You know, somebody? Yeah. Josh, you got to be careful what you say gonna be bad mouthing people out there. If you got to be in the game. I was. Like you said that was what they did with Frank. out in Las Vegas. Frank Cullotta Yeah. Cullotta, yeah, exactly. It was Cullotta that was they brought down and brought him against Spilotro. And that was what they did with Gotti. And it was yeah, it’s a trick they’ve used quite a bit. Had a guy on Facebook the other day speaking to that is kind of an aside, folks, when the guy on Facebook said, Well, I want to see that tape where they said that you got to take care of your own dirty laundry out there. And it says our own FBI trick that happens all the time. That that. Plus that tape that is never put in court entered into evidence cannot be it has to be trashed when you’re done with it, it and they can use it, I guess temporarily. But under the rules of Title Three, and that probably borders on violating the rules of Title Three. let anybody see it. When I got my tapes. I had I know there’s a lot more conversations I had to transcript for some of them. But they didn’t get entered as evidence. And they’re really juicy tapes that talking about killing people and stuff. And I only got the transcripts, because they’d never entered the tapes in his evidence. So they get rid of them. So that’s what happened those tapes, but yeah, you explain that, to me. That’s, that’s interesting. You know, you think, you know, those of us who follow them off world, we imagined some of those these giant vaults in conversations and sitting there waiting for us to be the ones to discover it and digitize them. And the truth is any tapes that are around or so are probably so so broken down and decomposed so much at this point that if people like yourself having to save them, they’re just oh, here anything. So so broken down. They even can’t even get a machine to play anymore. I had a tape from the FBI, as old videotape. And it’s Milton Rockman coming from Cleveland and meet that guy in Chicago. And they pick up Cleveland’s part of the scam. So I to it to a local guy and the local guy said, I said I’ve got a machine, but it’ll do that. But I’m afraid to tear it up, because it’s not working right. And I tore one up, you know, sometime in the last several months. He said, here’s a company in California. So I sent it to a company in California. And they took a look at it. And and they said they were able to look at it. And then they said well, there’s not really anything on it. And we’re afraid that we’ll mess it up if we tried to do anything and so I just, you know, just had to because you know, they’re no workplace else, you could try and find a machine so reel to reel tapes, were about like 12 inches or 16 inches wide, great big reel to reel tape with hours and hours of conversation on him. Because they may record but they only mark pertinent and then they at the time then they pull the pertinent conversations off. may have a whole lot more. But you just pull the pertinent conversations off. So then you’ve got all these hours and them just chit chatting and you don’t know what’s on there. So it’s Yeah, they just gotta get rid of them. If you had if you had the machine. Nobody would have the patience to do it.
Camillus Robinson 29:30
Yeah, it’s it’s like Kodachrome, you know that song codec promo. They used to have Kodachrome film and they would develop a certain chemicals and different things and they stopped manufacturing the chemicals. So now if you have any old Kodachrome negatives or Kodachrome slides, which used to be one of the most popular types of film, all you can do is develop it in black and white. It’s just the chemicals aren’t made the technology isn’t there anymore. It just is. Yeah. So it’s it doesn’t just have to develop Kodachrome building works. It’s just just is black and whites all you can do so these these methods that they used they just don’t translate
GARY JENKINS 30:07
Well this has been interesting can we get work comparisons between gaudy and an even between the outfit and we tried really talked about comparisons between the outfit and the five families I like to I like to put on my Facebook I think Facebook to join up the the podcast group that I asked you got a or Accardo so it seemed like it’s about 5050 right you know I I think it’s been a it is an interesting idea to cover I think their ages you know, God who was was was older than Capone, but in the model organism, par for the course. But you look at the two, they’re very polarizing figures, they’re there. They’re at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as what they represented. But what they what they really both did is they capture the imagination of the people in their times. And that is why we look at them now. And we wonder about them and it’s easy to see the similarities between when you dig a little bit deeper you realize they’re much different figures but the way that they captured the contemporary imaginations of the people who followed Marvin who crime love true crime really is why we’re talking about them now and I don’t think there will ever come another figure like them not I’m certainly not at the mob well I mean maybe like a Pablo Escobar or something like that, but certainly the mob world will never see another figure like an alpha prom or a John Gotti that really rings the trailer the jumps over genres and brings the average person into interest about the knowledge just happening in those waves those two new genres that’s it we’ll never see another camera as always I really appreciate you coming on the show everybody that remarks how much they like you everyone’s blouse I might say well where’s cam you know when are you going to have camp back on so I really appreciate it means a lot everybody’s working on my book, swan song and real struggle my wife is out now on not on Amazon Prime or on the coast of West website. Check it out with Lisa swan. WiFO Frank Calabrese Jr really tells the inside story of families and what they go through with the model so it’s really good it’s a good read. It’s really fluid book. We had a lot of fun doing it Gary, you played no small part in getting me off the ground with that. I really appreciate the well wishes from everybody anybody who’s seen me on Facebook knows that that had some some things going on. But thank you so much to everybody. For for all the support. And Gary thank you as always for everything. All right. Yeah, I’ve got about the book. I’ll put the guys I’ll put links to that. The swan song book, mob life stories. It’s a great story. And if you look back in the older podcasts I don’t know about two or three weeks ago, maybe two weeks ago now this sometime around August the middle of August or early part of August I put out the interview I did with Lisa Swan and Cam about her life with Frank Calabrese a junior okay, it is a hell of a story. I can’t thank you. Thank you, Gary. You know guys, I ride motorcycles so don’t forget, look out for motorcycles when you’re out there. If you have a problem with PTSD go to that VA website and get the hotline number if you have problem with drugs or alcohol. You know our friend Angelo ruggiano has a hotline on his website and he is drug and alcohol counselor down in Florida so maybe you could go down to his his rehab and have him as your drug and alcohol counselor now he can’t be that good. You can get some firsthand All right, don’t forget like and subscribe and give me a review. If you think about it. I appreciate it and cameras always I really appreciate you coming on the show.