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Union Station Massacre Part 2

Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. Today is June 17th, and exactly 93 years ago on this date, three desperados named Pretty Boy Floyd, Adam Richetti, and Verne Miller murdered four lawmen as they tried to break Frank Jelly Nash out of custody. In this episode, we delve into the detailed account of the Union Station Massacre with Terrence O’Malley, a renowned expert on organized crime in Kansas City. The incident involved a group plotting to liberate Frank Jelly Nash, a notorious bank robber, leading to a fatal confrontation at Union Station. As Terrence describes the events leading up to the massacre, a vivid picture emerges of law enforcement’s ill-fated attempt to transport Nash from Fort Smith to Leavenworth.

The narrative unfolds with the assembling of lawmen at Union Station, including FBI agents and local police officers, to escort Nash. However, a mix-up with firearms escalates tensions, culminating in a deadly shootout as they prepare to depart in a car. Shots fired from inside the vehicle kill Frank Nash and Ray Caffrey, initiating a chaotic exchange of gunfire resulting in the deaths of several law enforcement officers.

The aftermath of the massacre sees onlookers swarming the crime scene, hindering investigations. The city of Kansas City, already notorious for criminal activities, further solidifies its lawless reputation with this tragic event. As the podcast delves into the complexities of the Union Station massacre, intricate details emerge, including speculations on missing weaponry, law enforcement blunders, and the subsequent impact on the city’s history.

The episode provides insights into the high-stakes nature of law enforcement operations during that era, highlighting the unpredictability of gun battles and the challenges faced by officers in such intense situations. Terrence’s storytelling expertise brings to life the cascading events that unfolded on that fateful day, shedding light on the complexities and repercussions of the Union Station Massacre.

As the episode concludes, the host emphasizes the importance of awareness regarding PTSD and substance abuse, offering resources for those in need. Encouraging audience engagement through likes, shares, and subscriptions, the podcast aims to reach a broader audience while delving into intriguing historical accounts. The narrative, woven with personal anecdotes and historical insights, captivates listeners, offering a deeper understanding of the Union Station Massacre and its lasting impact on Kansas City’s history.

Find Terence O’Malley’s work at Black Hand Strawman.

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Introduction to Union Station Massacre Series

[0:00] So hey guys, hey all you wiretappers out there, welcome back to the second in the three-part series on the Union Station Massacre.
You know, I told you before, this is my friend Terrence O’Malley who did the quintessential documentary on the organized crime in Kansas City from the Black Hand days to the Straw Man days when they took off the Kansas City mob for skimming from Las Vegas casinos.
Terrence O’Malley in Black Hand Straw Man covers the board.
Unfortunately, you’re probably Probably not going to find it online, and I know it’s not on Amazon streaming.
He has copies of it. Get a hold of me if you really want a copy of it. It’s a great movie.
It’s a long one. It’s about almost three hours long to cover this entire breadth of Kansas City mob history.

[0:47] Terrence O’Malley is a real expert. He’s done a lot of other things since.
You know, I’m doing this because our friend Greg Scavuzzo, who actually had an ancestor who was involved in the aftermath of the Union Station massacre, Jimmy Needles LaCapra, who got all caught up in the cover-up of it, if you will, because the mob really, on the periphery, they had something to do with it.
And the mob in Kansas City had to approve of these traveling bank robbers coming in, trying to break another traveling bank robber out of custody in the middle of Kansas City.
And in the midst of this, four lawmen got killed, and it was a huge manhunt on afterwards.
So today, Terrence is going to give us a step-by-step, blow-by-blow description of that day that the actual massacre happened.
So listen and enjoy, guys.
Participants Gather in Kansas City

[1:38] We got the participants together and in Kansas City on the evening of June the 16th, 1933.

[1:46] They were put together by probably by organized crime members in Kansas City.
Now, the organized crime in Kansas City didn’t really have any…
Horsing that race, shall we say. They didn’t really care about whether Frank Jelly Nash was broken out of jail or not, but they did want to help out, just facilitate things, because these guys are the kind of guys that could do things for you.
They, without, don’t worry about whether it’s right or wrong, they can do things for you, and they can make money for these mob guys if they wanted to.
Discussion about Vern Miller and Frank Jelly Nash

[2:15] So we’re in Kansas City on June the 16th and the 17th of 1933, and I would imagine that night before they might have gone to that house at Vern Miller had out on Edgevale Road because if I remember right there was some evidence of who was there and and Vern Miller was a traveling bank robber would that would that be a good description of him Terrance that absolutely would and a hitman for hire so the hitman for hire and he was out of the northern part of the United States South Dakota I believe yes and here if at one time and and and taken a conviction for embezzlement.
So that kind of ended his law enforcement career.
Yes. As I always say, there’s a fine line between the cops and the robbers sometimes.

[2:57] And so he ends up being the robber, and he’s connected up with Chicago mobsters, I believe.
Yes, absolutely. And Detroit, the Purple Gang in Detroit.
Traveling Midwest Bank Robbers

[3:06] Yes. And so he’s in Kansas City to help get Frank Jelly Nash, who is a fellow bank robber, and some of these traveling Midwest bank robbers of the Prohibition era, like the Barrow Gang, Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker.
And who else did we have back then? Alvin Creepy Karpus and the Ma Barker Gang.
And there was a bunch of these gangs traveling around the Midwest.
Harvey Bailey. He’s one of my favorites. George Machine Gun Kelly. Correct.
Of course, he had Babyface Nelson.

[3:37] One of the more obscure ones, but interesting nonetheless, is Wilbur the Tri-State Terror Underhill.
That’s a great name. That’s a great moniker. That’s what I’m saying, man. You’ve got to have a good name if you want to make it in the annals of history.
Of organized crime. Right. They are independent actors.
Guys like Dillinger, for instance, or Homer Van Meter, or, you know, they would run together, but they didn’t run, you know, criminal enterprises, you know, criminal families. But they were connected.

[4:06] Well, they wouldn’t. In some manner, obviously, because and you had these safe, these sanctuary places like Hot Springs, Arkansas, Kansas City, Joplin, even had a safe house in Joplin.
Yeah. And of course, Chicago, anybody can hide in a big city like Pittsburgh, Kansas. Kansas has actually had quite a bit of bootlegging activity going on down there.
Events Leading to June 17th, 1933

[4:26] And what we’re talking about here today is what went down on June 17th, 1933 at Union Station in Kansas City.
Terrence, why don’t you get us started here on, I guess we should start the morning, early morning of June 17th?
Yes. Yes. And so what happens is that the Missouri Pacific train traveling from Fort Smith, Arkansas, carrying Frank Jelly Nash, accompanied by lawmen Joe Lackey, Frank Smith, and Otto Reed, who was the sheriff of McAllister County, Oklahoma.
Correct. The other two men were FBI agents, correct? Yes, they were.
Were they armed? Were FBI agents carrying guns? They were at that – well, at that – generally speaking, the FBI agents did not carry guns.
There wasn’t really a prohibition against it. It just wasn’t what they did.
Their jurisdiction was relatively limited to doing things like recapturing escaped federal prisoners.

[5:22] Enforcing the laws on Indian reservations, enforcing interstate bootlegging, that sort of thing.
But mostly white-collar, mostly investigatory activities where they would usually enlist the assistance of the local police when they needed kind of heavy artillery.
The FBI was not what we know or think about it today.
Impact of Union Station Massacre on FBI

[5:47] As a matter of fact, it is this event that is generally credited with giving birth to the modern FBI because within a year’s time, I believe there were something like a dozen congressional acts passed and signed by Roosevelt that essentially gave Hoover the power and authority that he felt like he needed to create a national police force. Interesting.
So the Union Station Massacre really is responsible for the rise of J.
Edgar Hoover and the power of which he attained over the years.
Yes. Until he was almost…

[6:23] The president couldn’t even get rid of J. Edgar Hoover by the end.
Well, you know, he, of course, is one of the fascinating characters of the 20th century.
And absolutely, there’s no doubt about it that the Union Station massacre was a demarcation point because then it basically made his case to Congress why they needed to beef up and essentially arm the FBI and make them true.
Not just investigators, but law enforcement officers.

[6:56] And quite a bit of legislation was passed.
And so this was a watershed event. It had a rippling effect throughout the United States.

[7:07] And in many ways, now, the St. Valentine’s Day massacre had occurred on Valentine’s Day in 1929.
And of course, you know, everybody’s heard of that, right?
But, you know, I would argue that that the Union Station Massacre was actually a more important event because the St.
Dave Massacre was criminals killing criminals. Correct.
Significance of Kansas City Massacre

[7:29] Whereas the Kansas City Massacre was criminals killing lawmen, and they killed four lawmen here in Kansas City.
We used to always, when a new federal FBI agent would come to town when I was working intelligence, well, we’d take him down to the Union Station and say, this is where the first FBI agent was ever killed.
But we were probably wrong, but it made a good story. Yeah, it does.
But nevertheless, it was an important event, and he shouldn’t have been killed, frankly.
It was a tragic event, incredibly.
So anyway, let’s get into the story. So what happens?
So they’re bringing Frank Nash through off the Missouri Pacific train, and they are met at Union Station by several other lawmen.
One of them is named the head of the local FBI office here at the time was a gentleman named Reed Vetterly.
And then they are also met with KC Police Officer Herman Red Grooms, Kansas City Police Officer Lieutenant Frank Hermanson.

[8:28] And then you’ve still got Otto Reed, the McAllister, Oklahoma, police chief. And then you’ve got federal agent Raymond Caffrey.
Aftermath of the Massacre

[8:35] So all these men, there were seven lawmen in total that were there.
So there were three of them on the train and four of them met the other lawmen with Frank Nash.
And they formed a wedge as they walked through Union Station.
Now, before they got off the train, though, it is believed that there was some mix-up between Otto Reed and Joe Lackey that they grabbed each other’s guns, okay, that one grabbed the other one’s gun.
And then they didn’t make a handoff or a switch. And so Joe Lackey had Otto Reed’s gun and Otto Reed had Joe Lackey’s gun.
And the critical thing to all of this is that Otto Reed’s gun had been modified.
So it was a shotgun, and he also loaded it with his own homemade buckshot.

[9:25] And so every time you would engage a shell, it would go off.
But Joe Lackey did not know that when he picked up Otto Reed’s gun.
But anyway, so they’re escorting Frank Nash through Union Station.
There’s kind of a wedge, if you will, with Frank in the middle and then agents spreading out behind him. And he’s wearing a white collared shirt.
He has a mustache. He had been wearing a wig when they picked him up, but they pulled the wig off of him.
And then they have a handkerchief thrown over his handcuffed hands.
And so that’s the procession as they’re going through Union Station.
They exit the easternmost doors at Union Station, and they are all going to pile into Ray Caffrey’s automobile.
Decision to Drive to Leavenworth

[10:17] Now, the reason why they decided to take an automobile up to Leavenworth rather than just stay on the train and go up there is because there was going to be a delay before the train left Kansas City.
It was going to be several hours before the train left, and they didn’t want to be hanging around Union Station because they thought they would be sitting ducks in case anybody was to try and liberate Frank Nash.
So they thought that the more expedient thing to do was to go ahead and put them in a car and drive them up to Leavenworth. Interesting.

[10:47] Because it’s kind of like a, you know, there’s such a kind of a long story in that he was arrested for prison escape in Hot Springs.
And so they take him via car to Fort Smith and then via train to Union Station.
And then rather than try to wait and get another train to Leavenworth, then they’re going to take him in the FBI agents. I believe it was even his personal car. It was.
He had just been transferred down to Kansas City from Omaha approximately 30 days before this. It was pretty new to the area.

[11:16] And so what happens is that Joe Lackey, one of the FBI agents who was responsible for re-arresting Frank Nash in Hot Springs, Arkansas, he gets into the back left seat of the Caffrey automobile.
Seizing of Lawmen at Union Station

[11:32] And then Frank Nash starts to get into the back seat.
And Lackey says, no, no, no, you get into the front seat.
You ride in the front seat where we can keep an eye on you, just like we did out of Hot Springs.
So Frank Nash gets into the front seat and he has to kind of scooch over to the far left so as to allow agent Frank Smith to get into the middle or the center of the backseat.
And then Otto Reed got into the right side of the backseat.
And so you got three lawmen in the backseat of the Ray Caffrey car.
So then Frank Nash is in the car. And when Ray Caffrey now starts to walk around the front of the car because he’s going to get into the driver’s seat, all of a sudden they are seized upon by men.

[12:21] And this is where the story, of course, gets a little bit in conflict, if you will. You know, different people say different things happen.
So the two Kansas City police officers then, Grooms and Hermanson, they’ve walked them to the car, but they’re probably just standing there in front of them. They’re standing right there on the passenger side of the car as is Vetterli is behind the head of the FBI office in Kansas City.
And then Ray Caffrey is walking around the front of the car when all of a sudden they’re put upon.
Commencement of Gunfire at Union Station

[12:51] And you hear this somebody say, put them up, up, put them up.
And they’re telling the agents to do this. Put your hands up.
You know, well, before much else can be said.

[13:05] Joe Lackey in the backseat using Otto Reed’s gun, he thinks that he’s engaging the gun and putting a shell into the chamber when what happens is the gun goes off and it fires from the backseat of the Caffrey automobile and it blows off Frank Nash’s head and basically left left side of his head.
And then one pellet strikes Ray Caffrey in the temple, his left temple, as he’s walking around the side of the car and it fells him right away.
It was not the bad guys who probably started the firefight.
It was more likely than not. And the ballistics pointed out, and of course, Robert Unger has a fantastic book, The Union Station Massacre, the original sent of J.
Edgar Hoover’s FBI, which where he dissects what happened.
And he really does an excellent job because he had the benefit under the Freedom of Information Act of actually having the entire FBI investigatory file on this.
Yeah, I understand he even had their witness statements that said the first shots came from inside the car. That’s right.
Outside the car. That’s right. And it totally makes sense, too, because.

[14:18] The bad guys weren’t looking to start killing lawmen in broad daylight in a crowded public space.
Speculations and Ballistics Analysis

[14:27] That’s not what they did. That’s all they wanted to do.
Now, some people say, oh, well, that it was actually a hit on Frank Nash because he had information on people.

[14:37] I just – No, he hadn’t read it before.
He wasn’t going to start reading it now. Now, you know, that’s interesting you mention because Merle Gill was a private contractor ballistician during this period, and he had been brought over from St.
Louis sometime before and practiced ballistics here in Kansas City and was recognized as an expert in ballistics and was used by all law enforcement around the area, including the FBI.

[15:08] Until he came out with a report that J.
Edgar Hoover did not like about the Union Station massacre.
And so he managed to ensure that Merle Gill would not be able to ply his trade around these parts because he wouldn’t give him any more business after this.
He said, never use that guy again.
You know, well, there aren’t a lot of guys around with that type of expertise. But anyway, so.
Guns Involved in the Shootout

[15:33] So what kind of gun did Byrne Miller have? He had a machine gun.
Yeah. A .45 caliber machine gun.
Yeah. So there there was at least one and probably two machine guns involved with this. I say that there were probably two machine guns.
And the reason why is because it’s fairly well documented.
Jimmy Needles LaCapra, in his statement, said that Vern Miller was given a machine gun by Sam Scola, who was Jimmy Needles’ brother-in-law, because pretty boy Floyd already had one. So he didn’t need one.
Probably two. Right. And I know there was .45 caliber slugs recovered. Yes. Yeah.
And so Adam Ricchetti probably had, you know, was wielding, you know, a couple of guns.

[16:14] I would say I might have two guns. So that’s what you got going on.
And so the first shot goes off from the backseat of the Caffrey automobile, blows off Frank Nash’s head, kills Ray Caffrey with a pellet to the temple.
Chaos and Casualties at Union Station

[16:31] And then all of a sudden, just a huge firefight erupts.
And what’s interesting is that Lackey in the backseat yet again doesn’t really understand what’s just happened.
So he engages another shell and boom, there you get another blast of a shotgun from the backseat of the Caffrey automobile.
And it is very possible that Joe Lackey dies.

[16:57] Killed one or possibly both, but probably one of the Kansas City police officers that was standing outside of the Caffrey automobile when it all went down.
And then next thing you know, the bad guys are shooting up the car right and left, and they killed yet another lawman.
So a total of four lawmen.
You had Ray Caffrey was killed.
Red Grooms of the Kansas City Police Department was killed. killed.
Frank Hermanson of the Kansas City Police Department was killed, as was Otto Reed, who was sitting in the back right seat of the automobile.
And he was killed by that next shot by Lackey with the shotgun.
No, Otto Reed was in the back seat of the car, but it was probably either Hermanson or Red Grooms were probably killed by that next shot of Joe Lackey. Oh, okay.
Yeah, because they They were standing outside the car. Probably Vern Miller.
He started shooting or – Oh, Vern Miller, Pretty Boy Floyd. All of them probably just started firing.
And we’ve seen the pictures of it. It’s shot. Yeah, and Joe Lackey ended up getting shot.
Okay. And obviously Otto Ried got shot because he was killed.

[18:04] Reed Vetterli, the head of the local FBI agent, he doesn’t have any weapon.
See, and that’s a good example of how – he’s a federal agent, but he’s not carrying a weapon.
Well, he just starts hightailing it back to Union Station, you know, to get back, you know, to some cover of the building.
And they’re shooting after him and they managed to miss him.
But that would probably also explain, you know, the bullet holes.
Laps and bullet holes. Right, is that they were shooting after Reed Vetterly.
And so then what happens is as soon as the shooting stops, one of the bad guys goes around to the driver’s side of the automobile and looks in and he just looks and he says, he’s dead.
He’s talking about Frank Nash. Meanwhile, Frank Smith and Joe Lackey – Frank Smith’s in the middle of the backseat.
Joe Lackey’s on the left-hand side, driver’s side of the backseat. They played dead.
They acted like they were dead. And one of the bad guys came up and said, he’s dead.
And then they just – they hightailed it out of there.
Escape Route and Return to Vern Miller’s House

[19:15] And what they did was they sped up right alongside the park where the Liberty Memorial is. Yeah, Penn Valley Park.
And then they sped across 31st Street.

[19:30] And then probably took, I mean, it’s hard to say for sure which street they took south, but they started heading south out towards 6612 Edgevale Road.
So they went back to Vern Miller’s. Yes, they went back to Vern Miller’s house.
Well, meanwhile, what happens is you’ve got this incredibly horrific scene there outside of Union Station, and onlookers start to swarm around the crime scene.
And they just stomp all over it, making it very difficult for subsequent investigators to piece together what happened because they were doing all kinds of crazy things.
You know, photographers showed up on the scene.
And so as to create some drama, they took the hat of one of the slain lawmen and they put it on the fender of the automobile so you could see the bullet hole in the hat.
Well, you know, well, you know, if you do things like that and it makes it hard to, you know, piece the puzzle together as to what exactly happened.
You know, the story of the hot shot. Yeah. The armored car and the missing gun.
Absolutely. I’ve got a little addition to that missing gun story. Well, so the story of the hotshot is that the hotshot was the armored car, the Kansas City Police Department, that was regularly outfitted with a Thompson machine gun.

[20:53] And somehow, some way or another, that gun was not in the hotshot when Red Grooms and Hermanson, you know, showed up that morning to provide support, you know, to the federal agents.
The, you know, the hotshot was the armored car of the police department that should have had a machine gun in it, and it didn’t.
And the, you know, speculation is that Johnny Lazia called and said, get rid of that gun. Don’t, you know, do something with that gun.
Don’t have it in the car when they are, you know, coming to the scene.
Now, there’s a story that was told by a policeman who probably came on about 1940 because he was on 30 years. And he… In 1970.
1970. And he told this story. There was a gun that was in that, that usually they carried.
And it was a automatic, semi-automatic, 30 caliber, like .30-06 rifle.
And it had KCPD stamped on it.
So a gun collector found a gun like that. And he took it to this retired major who was kind of a…

[22:02] He was kind of a pendergast guy, but he went along with the New Deal, and when things changed in 1939, well, he had come on right after that, but as things changed over the years, he changed with the times.
But he tells a story that Hermanson and Grooms were friends of the chief, which would make sense because they had the kind of a prime job of driving the hotshot.
That would have been a highly desired job. and he said that gun it was the gun that they had in the hot shot we’re supposed to have and they they had checked it out and they carried it they always met the chief for coffee in the morning before they went out on the street mm-hmm this is Herman’s Hermanson and grooms and so they went to the chief’s office and they went out and got in the hot shot and drove out to Union Station and they left the gun sitting the chief’s office but nobody ever wanted to admit that they just goofed up and left their gun back at police headquarters and forgot it so So I was telling that story with some guys, and we all had a story about the time that we forgot our gun when we went to work. Yeah.
Every policeman has a story about the time they got to work.
Or my particular story was I unloaded my gun and then forgot to load it back up and stuck it in my holster and spent practically the whole day out cruising around.

[23:16] Walking around like Barney Five, keeping your bullet in your front left pocket. So I got a feeling.
You know, I believe that story, to be quite honest. Yeah. Kind of crazy enough to make sense.
Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn’t disagree. Another kind of interesting thing about the hotshot was it was wrecked and totaled about a week later.
Oh, really? Yeah, after the Union Station.
The first armored car. Right. Well, and so what do you have happening?
Investigation Challenges at the Crime Scene

[23:39] You’ve got this mess of a crime scene left there.
And, of course, the wires are burning up with four slain police officers in Kansas City.
And, of course, Kansas City by this time was reputationally starting to get out of control.
Some serious stuff was going on, a lot of kidnappings going on.
One of the Katz brothers was kidnapped.
Of course, Nellie Dawn was kidnapped.
Shortly before the Union Station massacre, the city manager’s daughter was kidnapped.
McElroy’s daughter was kidnapped.

[24:11] And then it had become haven for criminals to come and lay low, and it would continue on. I mean, in 1934, you had the bloody election where four people were killed at the polls in Kansas City.
You had the big shootout on Armor Boulevard in August of 1933 between Sheriff Bash and a bunch of Johnny Lazia’s men, Charlie Gargata, Gaetano Lococo, Gus Fasone, Sam Scola, where several people were killed.
And so you have Bonnie and Clyde with big shootout up there at the – In Platte City.
In Platte City. you know, in July of 1933.
Oh, I didn’t realize that. Yeah. So you just, you had a lot of bad stuff going on here in Kansas City. A lot of writers were coming to Kansas City to find out what is going on in this city.
And you have to appreciate that Kansas City was the largest city from here to Los Angeles or San Francisco pre-World War II.

[25:09] And so it really was the, you know, the embarkment for the Great West.
And so it played a very important role at that time, bigger than Denver, bigger than Dallas, Phoenix, Salt Lake, any of those cities that are probably bigger now.
But at the time, they weren’t. And Kansas City was the largest city.
So Kansas City was very much getting a wide open, kind of a lawless type of reputation.
Corruption and Vote Fraud in Kansas City

[25:38] And of course, in 1936, after 36 elections, you had the largest vote fraud prosecution in the history of the United States.
They indicted 278 people and convicted 259 of them.
Now, I don’t think you’ll ever see that again in the history of the United States.
I don’t think you’ll ever see that type of systematic vote fraud like you had in Kansas City, but it is just emblematic of the corruption. shouldn’t have known.
Gun battle breaks out. All plans are off.

[26:09] Everybody’s just reacting. You don’t know how you’re going to react.
Trust me, guys, you don’t know how you’re going to react if you get in a gun battle and when the bullets start flying, you just don’t know.
There’s no way you can plan it out.
Reactions in a Gun Battle

[26:23] You can think i’ll do this if this happens i’ll do that if that happens but when something starts happening you don’t know what you’re going to do you just hope you can react in the some kind of a somewhat brave manner or a skillful manner and and not kill the wrong person as you know now it happened in this guys tried to break jelly nash out and and he gets killed by accident.

[26:46] By not one of them but you know it’s and and they created such a stir they would have been much Much better off just to wait till he got back up to Leavenworth and then start working on getting him out there. They thought this was going to be a piece of cake.
They didn’t realize what was going to happen when they got to Kansas City.
Kansas City coppers got killed. You know, they had the they had the hot shot there, but they forgot the the B.A.R. I believe it was a B.A.R.
That they had that day, left it on the chief’s desk.
Lots of interesting little stories around the Union Station massacre.
Massacre and Terrence is a master storyteller who’s really giving us an inside look at what happened that day.
So thanks a lot, guys. Don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles.
Motorcycle Safety and Resources for PTSD or Addiction

[27:27] So watch out for motorcycles when you’re out there. And if you have a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service, go to the VA website, get that hotline number.
If you have a problem with drugs or alcohol, whether you’ve been in the service or not, if you’ve been in the service, probably the the VA will handle your problem.
But if you’re not, you can go to Anthony Ruggiano’s website.
He’s got a hotline number on there. And he’s a drug and alcohol counselor down in Florida.
So you can get a real deal mob guy to be your counselor, which would be pretty cool. Let me know if you do that. It’d be interesting.
I’m just curious. I’m not going to put it on the show, but I’m just interested to see how that gets handled by him.

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