Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. In this episode, author Michael Wolraich and Gary discuss his book, The Bishop and the Buterfly. This is about the murder of Vivian Gordon, a prostitute connected to wealthy men, and Prohibition-era organized crime figures like Arnold Rothstein, Legs Diamond, Dutch Schultz, and others. The author explains the corruption within the government and political system, highlighting the investigation’s challenges and media coverage. We learned the investigators uncovered a collection of diaries with incriminating information about gangsters, leading to demands for an anti-corruption investigation. The climax occurs during a meeting between Mayor Jimmy Walker, investigator Samuel Seabury, and Franklin D. Roosevelt. We also touch on the history of New York City and Mayor LaGuardia’s efforts to clean up the city.
Click here to find Michael Wolraich’s author page.
Support the podcast.
Subscribe to get new gangster stories every week.
Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire
Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee”
To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here
To rent Brothers against Brothers, the documentary, click here.
To rent Gangland Wire, the documentary, click here
To buy my Kindle book, Leaving Vegas: The True Story of How FBI Wiretaps Ended Mob Domination of Las Vegas Casinos.
To subscribe on iTunes click here. Please give me a review and help others find the podcast.
Donate to the podcast. Click here!
[0:00] Welcome all you wiretappers out there back here in the studio of Gangland Wire.
Retired intelligence unit detective Gary Jenkins coming from Kansas City.
And guys, I have Michael Wolraich here with us in the studio or on the Zoom.
And he has a book called The Bishop and the Butterfly. I’ll have links to how you buy that book in the show notes.
Here’s a picture of the cover. If you’re on YouTube, you’ll see that.
It’s a really interesting look at New York City. The son of the seamy underbelly and the corruption of New York City during the 1930s just come out of prohibition, really, and going into the Depression era during this time.
And there’s a prostitute named Vivian Gordon that has been murdered.
A good murder mystery always starts out with a body.
And so we start out with a body. Right, Michael?
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, she was, you know, they discovered her and they didn’t know who she was at first. Her body was found in a gully in Van Cortlandt Park in the Bronx, which is a number.
It was a popular dumping ground for bodies in the 1930s, maybe still is.
Kind of describe, where did she fit in society? She was a prostitute and she was connected to the famous Polly Adler in some manner.
And that Manhattan at the time, especially in New York City, was a smaller town.
People knew each other. So how was she connected into that Simi underbelly, the mob and the rest of the people that were doing crimes?
[1:25] Well, she was much more than a prostitute. That’s what she was originally convicted for in 1923, although that conviction is a little dubious.
She claimed she was framed by her ex-husband who was seeking custody of her child, her eight-year-old child.
And she was arrested and sent to the Bedford Reformatory upstate.
And after that experience, she’s bitter, bitter. She’s lost her daughter.
She’s branded as a prostitute. Then she turned to a life of crime.
And she did some prostitution, but she was much more than that.
She was best known for seducing wealthy men, wealthy New Yorkers, prominent businessmen, some politicians, and often blackmailing them as well, or blackmailing them after the affair was over.
She ran stock frauds. she ran a call girl service.
She did work for Polly Adler as a high-end prostitute sometimes, but they had a falling out in the late 1920s that the journalist reported that there was a hair-pulling battle between them.
And Polly told Vivian to get out and never come back.
[2:36] Interesting. So like the famous story, Lucky Luciano was convicted of receiving money from a prostitution ring.
And so how did she maneuver among these organized crime people who are always looking to suck money off of anybody that’s making money out of crime?
They want a piece of that action. And she was in that milieu, if you will.
Vivian’s connections to organized crime and her alliances
[2:58] And so how did she navigate that?
[3:01] Yeah. So she knew some of those guys. She was living in the Park Central Hotel on 7th Avenue, when you just south of the park there near where what’s now billionaires row but it was famous for gangsters in the time that’s where Arnold Rothstein was shot and killed and she was living there i don’t know she was living there at the time he was murdered but she knew him through there and also allegedly knew and hung out with legs diamond but she was closer with another gangster an irish mobster named vanny higgins who was running bootlegging out of Brooklyn.
He had a fleet of airplanes. He had his torpedo boat. He would get.
[3:42] Liquor from Canada and smuggled in.
And Vivian Gordon was good friends with his girlfriend, Canadian, a young woman named Jean Stoneham.
They were roommates for a time. And so she was pretty well connected to Vanny Higgins.
Higgins is not as well known as some of the other folks, but he was actually sometimes ally and later enemy of Legs Diamond.
And some people think He was one of the guys who attempted to shoot Lake Diamond.
Lake Diamond, of course, survived multiple shootings. Yeah, they couldn’t kill. It couldn’t kill him.
The journalist called him like the human skeet.
Yeah, the human clay pigeon. That’s what it was. Clay pigeon, yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
[4:25] Oh, yeah. So Vanny Higgins was sought by the police after one of the shootings at a hotel in off Central Park in the Upper West Side.
And his girlfriend, he got a place for her there, got a room for her there.
And Legs Diamond also had a mistress who had a place at this hotel.
And that hotel was where Legs was shot at that time. One of the worst shootings before he was actually killed.
And police suspected Vanny Higgins hiring the hitman to pull that off.
Yeah. He would have known what was going on at that location because he had a woman there. So interesting.
And she had these guys gather their intelligence, if you will, in order to set somebody up to kill them. That’s really interesting.
So she’s connected and we’re coming out of prohibition. And because of prohibition, the government from one end to the other was pretty corrupt.
It seems to me like in all these major cities, because all that money was flowing in from booze and it was an unpopular law anyhow.
So they didn’t mind taking, it was like clean money, wasn’t like narcotics money. It was clean money.
Everybody was taking money. And when they found her apartment, after they found her body and they searched her apartment, they found a book in there.
Tell us about that book that they found. It launched a whole big investigation.
[5:45] Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, just adding to that context of the time, I mean, the city was run by the political machine, Tammany Hall, which is famous in New York history and gangs in New York talk a lot about Tammany Hall.
Really ruled the city from the early 1800s until this period until the early 1900s until the 1930s and this murder was actually tied up in the collapse of Tammany Hall this machine, where they basically chose who would be nominated by the democratic party for, both for mayor and for almost every other position in the city and the city was so heavily democratic that that meant Tammany Hall could basically choose whoever they wanted in positions of power.
And those people, once they achieved those positions of power, used their power to enrich themselves very often.
There were lots of deals. They would take kickbacks for contracts.
They would take bribes to hire people or building inspectors.
There were cops shaking down gambling dens.
It was a really corrupt city back then. And it only became more corrupt in the 1920s with Prohibition, because basically a lot of these gangsters had connections at Tammany Hall.
[7:03] So Arnold Rothstein was particularly well known for being connected with these politicians, and he would use those connections to help protect the rum runners and the gangsters who were were running these operations and they would basically pay Rothstein for protection, not, necessarily muscle, but his connections with the police and politicians.
And so when Rothstein was shot at the Park Central Hotel, Tammany started freaking out a lot of the big officials because Rothstein knew a lot of those folks.
[7:39] A lot of people believe that they purposely did not try to find the killer because they were trying to bury that murder and bury any connection to Arnold Rothstein.
So that was sort of what was going on in New York at that time when Vivian Gordon was murdered.
And that those books that you’re talking about were diaries they found.
So they found a list of names. They found black books with lists of her targets and some of the men that she’d blackmailed or were planning to blackmail.
They found names of gangsters like Rothstein and Diamond and Vanny Higgins.
And they found these diaries that described the three years of her life right before her murder.
And they found a letter. And the letter was what really made this case, which was already a sensational case, just made it explosive.
Just the whole city became obsessed with it. It was over the news, on news headlines for months.
Not even in New York. I mean, I found references to the story as far away as Singapore and Sydney, Australia.
[8:40] This was big news. And the reason it was big news was because that letter came from an anti-corruption commission that was a state commission that had been set up by the governor at the time, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, set up to investigate some bribery by judges in New York.
And the judges were known as magistrates.
And so it started off pretty small. They found some magistrates that took some money, but then they uncovered something bigger or at least more sensational.
They found out that there was a ring of cops and vice cops whose job it was to arrest prostitutes and gamblers and defense attorneys and bondsmen.
[9:25] To frame innocent women for prostitution and it was basically it was a shakedown the cops would arrest the women on flimsy or fabricated evidence and so the women’s court was in the west village and it’s still it’s a library now on sixth avenue beautiful they had a whole separate court called women just for women it was a women’s court exactly and it was of course mostly prostitutes at that time and it was a big spectacle it was a scene as a form of entertainment men new Yorkers would come sit in the galleries just to hold the prostitutes at their hearings oh my god sick sick, but it’s a beautiful landmark building on 6th avenue and 10th street the courthouse is still there there was a jail there’s a woman’s jail right next to it that is no longer but the courthouse is still there it’s now a library and what was the woman’s court is now the children’s reading room.
Corrupt Scheme: Lawyers, Cops, and Bondsmen Colluding
[10:22] Yeah i’ll have to be doing a reading there in February interesting so this is where this game was going on this plot was going on the lawyers offices were right across the street yeah and the police would bring down these women they arrested they deliver them to the bondsman the bondsman would charge them a high fee and then deliver them to the defense attorneys and the defense attorneys would say look you can pay my fee and i’ll get you off if they did then And the attorneys would give kickbacks to the cops and the bondsmen, and the cop would not show up at the hearing. And that woman would get off.
On the other hand, if the woman didn’t have the money, then she was screwed.
She would get convicted and be often sent to the reformatory, which is what had happened to Vivian Gordon back in 1923.
So this Anti-Corruption Commission, they discover this, and it’s huge news.
I mean, this ring of cops arresting innocent women for money.
Vivian Gordon read about this in papers, and she said, I’m going to go talk to them, tell them my story.
And that was the letter that the police found at her apartment, this pot apartment in Murray Hill, the invitation to speak with them.
And she did actually meet with investigators from this commission.
Five days after that, she was murdered.
Investigation into Vivian Gordon’s Murder Begins
[11:44] So everyone’s thinking cops bumped her off to shut her up so then how did they get any kind of investigation done on her murder since the cops are the ones that investigate did this commission start have their own investigators that started looking into the murder and calling witnesses about that, So, yes, the investigation was led by a former judge named Samuel Seabury.
The name is kind of famous from Hamilton because his great-great-grandfather was the first Episcopal bishop in the United States.
And he was a loyalist at the time. And so he and Hamilton didn’t get along very well.
So this is a great-great-grandson, also named Samuel Seabury.
[12:23] And he’s people called him oftentimes the bishop because both because of his ancestor and because he was this real imperious moralizing guy a lot of integrity but top down to people spoke perfectly never cursed yeah yeah he was a true straight arrow so he’s the bishop in the title of my book the bishop i’ve seen they said butterflies vivian all right i was gonna ask I was going to ask you how you got that title. Thanks for explaining that.
She’s the Broadway butterfly, which she was an actress, but it was more, they called women who hung around with some of the gangsters in Broadway area, they called them Broadway butterflies.
[13:01] Yeah. So Seabury, he started interviewing witnesses to see what Vivian Gordon knew, trying to figure out why she’d been killed, interviewed some of her friends at the time.
Then there was also another investigation going on out of the Bronx.
Mulrooney Takes Over the Investigation, Journalists Granted Access
[13:16] That’s where the murder was. But the cops knew right away this was a big deal.
And the police commissioner, Mulrooney, he basically took over the investigation from the get-go because it was so political and so freighted that he felt that he needed to assure the public that the police were working on it. it.
And so he assigned like 200 officers to this case.
And they would gather in their original headquarters were actually in her apartment.
So these, a bunch of cops would be crowded in there and all these journalists would be crowded in there and they’d be talking about the case and the journalists are meanwhile, like going through and finding evidence on their own in the apartment.
[13:54] Yeah, I’ve seen those pictures. Those old crime scene photos where there’s cameramen and reporters looking through stuff and taking pictures.
[14:05] It was crazy. Yeah, that doesn’t work that way now. At that time, they gave the journalists a lot of access.
And journalists, this was like daily news, the height as it was height of its readership. And they were big on crime and covered these stories in depth.
And so they were all over the story.
[14:25] So Mr. Mulrooney, he was diligently looking into this.
And they had this whole team of cops that were definitely trying to solve it, but they couldn’t solve it.
They couldn’t figure out. They first pulled in a couple of minor gangsters.
Well, one was a lawyer who was a Brooklyn attorney named John Radloff, who had been Vivian Gordon’s lover.
And they’d had this love-hate relationship and were constantly threatening each other.
But he didn’t have a crime record criminal record and then he had a assistant who was a thug a chowderhead cohen great name yeah i you know sam cohen was his name but everyone called him chowderhead chowderhead um she wrote about these guys in her diary she talked about how radloff threatened to kill her and said if anyone reads this i’m writing down what radloff said just in case so clearly posthumously pointing the finger at this guy and his henchmen so they arrested those two but they didn’t have any evidence so she was strangled had this dirty clothes line that had been used to kill her she was missing her mink coat and ring the diamond ring.
[15:39] But they didn’t have anything to go on and so they were interviewing everyone after After weeks of turning up nothing, the district attorney even hired the Pinkerton, the private to assist with the case because they wanted to show some progress because everyone, of course, is assuming, well, they’re just not solving the case because the cops don’t want to solve it. Yeah, I bet.
Private Investigators Hired to Assist with the Case
[16:02] So that’s a pretty good overview there as we get into it.
More and more details are going to come out, I have to assume, as you get into this about about who was being blackmailed and how they’re being blackmailed. I looked at some of those details she had you’ve got in your book from her diary, which are pretty interesting.
It looks like she got beat up a couple of times by some of these johns that she had.
Can you tell just a little bit about kind of some of the excerpts that you’ve got in here out of her diary?
Sure. Yeah. So she did talk about, yeah, there was one night where she went out with this rich publisher.
He had a publishing house down the village, which published a bunch of magazines.
And they went out on Broadway and partied all night and ended up back at a hotel.
And somehow they were in a smaller group and the guys there just jumped her and just started kicking the daylights out of her.
So she writes in her diary about she had broken ribs and really beat up.
There were a couple of pimps that she knew and was friends with.
And she went there and hung out their place.
And one of their women took care of her for a while.
So she talked about that. She also talked about something that ended up being pretty pivotal in the case.
But it was very mysterious at the time. She talked about a bank job in Oslo, Norway, of all places.
[17:25] So, you know, Radulov, the attorney who was a boyfriend, had connected her with this scheme to basically she had money and he had these friends who had this connection in Oslo that they’d met in prison.
And he said he had this some kind of inside connection in Oslo.
So Radulov convinced Vivian Gordon to fund it.
So she gave them money, paid for their passage, paid for three guys to go out to Oslo.
And they pulled up in this cabin in the woods and came up with this cover story where they were, one was a filmmaker, one was a doctor. They were working on this invention.
And they had, if any of the curious neighbors came around, they would show them this machine with wires coming out.
So they didn’t actually pull off the job. Something happened.
Vivian’s Involvement in a Bank Job in Oslo Revealed
[18:15] Not clear what. what? Some interrupted the scheme.
The regent who had connected them later tried to pull off the robbery on his own.
And so he held up the bank, but they caught him.
And these three guys, they sort of gave up, went around Europe a little bit and came home and the money ran out. They spent all of Vivian’s money and then came home.
[18:35] Exactly. So she’s pissed. She’s counting these guys to try to get her money back. And she’s writing about that in the diary, but the police cannot figure out who these people are.
They were using aliases and there’s no paper trail. There’s nothing.
So this is, again, another wall that they hit. Now, I’m not going to go too much. I don’t want to spoil the whole mystery here.
Right, right. We don’t want to give it all away.
In fact, you’ve told some pretty good stories. You’ve got guys tantalized enough, I think, if they want to read this book, they’re going to want to read it for sure.
It’s really interesting, this kind of view into the seamy underbelly of Manhattan or all of New York, but mainly Manhattan, I think, and how corrupt it was and this unraveling of the corruption is really interesting and all the details that are going to come out, I know.
Well, what I can talk about, because this is historical record, is what was going on with Seabury’s investigation.
[19:32] So as this case is getting all this attention and more and more scandals are coming out, New Yorkers, which had been kind of complacent about Tammany Hall, especially during the Roaring Twenties, everybody was rich.
They were at least making a lot more money than usual and they were having a good time.
So they weren’t too worried about Tammany Hall, even as it became more and more corrupt because of their connections with all these gangsters.
And the mayor at that time, he was a Tammany Hall mayor named Jimmy Walker.
He was a playboy. They called him the Nightmare because he loved to party.
He had a personal tailor and they would design his outfits and he would change his clothes three times a day, once in the morning, once at work, and then once when he went out for the evening.
He had a mistress who was a beautiful Broadway starlet, half his age. Of course, of course.
And everyone loved him. He so embodied the Roaring Twenties.
And he was charismatic and friendly and he loved parades.
He ran LaGuardia, who later became mayor, ran against him in 1929.
And he was arguing, he’s like, this guy’s corrupt, Tamnigal’s corrupt, we got to do something about this. Nobody listens.
Jimmy Walker just crushed LaGuardia in that election. And so it was reelected in 1929.
That happened right after the stock market trashed. But then as the depression started to set in and the good times went away, people started looking around and seeing how incompetent the city government was and how corrupt.
Scandals and Sensational Murder Spark Public Outrage
[21:00] And they started to get angry. And then when these scandals started coming out, they got even angrier.
And then especially when this sort of sensational murder happened, people started to blow their top. Newspapers started writing all about it.
FDR governor was was getting nervous because he was already thinking about running for president.
And he didn’t want to piss off Tammy Hall people because he needed their support.
So they controlled so many delegates that he needed their support for the nomination.
So he was really kind of trying to keep this investigation small.
But there was so much political pressure because of everything that the investigators had discovered and what was going on in Vivian Gordon’s murder that, He eventually allowed the investigation to expand its power.
And they started investigating not just a few judges and cops.
They started investigating everyone in the city.
So all these Tammany people, they were turning up all this evidence of corruption.
Like they would go through people’s bank records.
They would find these huge bank accounts for people with really small salaries.
And they’d haul them into the hearings. And these guys would be like, oh, I had a rich uncle or I got lucky on a horse. and sort of became a joke.
Everyone had a rich uncle where they would talk to Seabury, would ask him, where did you keep this money?
And they would answer like, oh, in a tin box.
And so they’d sort of, and Seabury would be like, well, that’s a very magical tin box you must have there.
Mayor’s Slush Fund and the Showdown with Jimmy Walker
[22:27] So it was getting bigger and bigger. People were, they were getting dirt on, they were finding these corruption scandals.
And then they found out the mayor also had a slush fund.
[22:36] Totaled about a million dollars. Wow, in 1930s. Yeah. That’s a lot of money. A lot of money.
And so Seabury hauled Jimmy Walker in too. This was at the state Supreme Court building down off Foley Square.
It’s the one with the big pillars. They always show in Law and Order.
That’s where the hearings were held. And when Jimmy Walker, his car pulls up and he steps out and he’s wearing an entire shirt blue suit, blue tie, he has a blue handkerchief in his pocket, comes out, waves at the crowd.
They’re all cheering because they still love him.
He wades through the crowd, up the steps, into the building.
And then for the next two days, he and Seabury are in a battle of wits.
So Walker was known for his quick wit and his one-liners.
He was like, oh, he’s cracked people up. So Seabury’s trying to drill into him and figure out, you know, where’s all this money coming from?
Why is he getting all this money?
And he’s just dropping wisecracks.
And didn’t really have a good explanation. He said, oh, these were friends of mine. they gave me money out of generosity they included me in this stock deal i don’t really know anything about it i don’t know anything about how money works uh sounds familiar in present day.
New York City: Colorful Charm and Corruption
[23:50] Yes yeah i you know get into politics but there are some analogies i mean yeah i’ll play this mayor eric adams likes to call himself the nightlife mayor, so nightmare nightmare interesting new york city has always been colorful no matter what it’s always been colorful yes, That’s part of the charm. That’s half or three quarters of the charm of New York City. I don’t know how anybody lives there, but it is colorful.
[24:19] And then really, this was just a moment in New York. This is such a New York City moment with Seabury and Walker going at each other. And that wasn’t even the end of it.
After their hearing, Roosevelt was like, I have to think about this.
And he went to the convention and he got nominated to be president.
And then after that was done, and he was safe, he said, okay, Seabury Walker, come up to Albany. They came to his executive office.
And he sat them down and he was grilling Jimmy Walker about this evidence that Seabury had turned up.
I’ll stop there. That’s also a little bit of a spoiler, although you can figure it out if you read the history.
But that was sort of the climax of this whole anti-corruption investigation.
Really interesting. And I think nationwide during those times, I know in Kansas City, we had a new broom sweeping clean by 1939 and swept out all the old dirty politicians, politicians, fired every policeman we had in Kansas City and hired all new people and starting in 1939, which those effects lasted clear up until about the time I came on the 1970s, when the last guys that was hired in 1939 was still around, just retired.
He’d stayed on like 40 years or whatever.
But it’s amazing, you know, and I bet other cities had the same kind of a dynamic.
Cleaning Up Corruption in New York City and Other Cities
[25:32] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, New York was probably the worst. I mean, others after Chicago was really bad, but New York in the 1930s, there was a lot of dirt there.
This was the climax of that era. And it was sort of after this that Mayor LaGuardia, who the airport is named after, won election.
Preston Pyshko, There were all the slot machines in the river.
David Gardner, So that was also with Prohibition ending, he was really able to clean up the city.
When I write the book, I set this up as two stories. I modeled it off of Devil in the White City, which did this. I don’t know if your listeners have read that, but about there’s this serial murder in Chicago in the 1890s.
And then there was a story of the architect behind the World’s Fair there.
And they’re really two separate stories, but he weaves them together so incredibly that you’re sort of on the tip of your edge of your seat trying to figure out how they’re going to stop this murderer.
And at the same time, you’re interwoven with this incredibly interesting history of the World’s Fair.
I don’t know. So I tried to do that same approach with my book, where you have, on one hand, you have this murder going on, and the murder is tied to this other investigation.
[26:44] And the chapters will go back and forth. As you’re hearing about the murder investigation, you’re seeing the city investigation develop.
[26:51] And I found them just both fascinating historical developments, one in kind of a small personal crime scale and the other, this epic historical scale.
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Guys, if you want to know a whole lot more about New York City and its history and where it came from to where it got eventually, now you got another Jimmy Walker as the mayor.
So I don’t know if New York City’s changed that much or not.
What do you think, Michael?
Has it really changed that? It has. It has. You don’t have cops going around trying to set up housewives as prostitutes and shaking them down with the bondsman, except maybe on a minor basis.
Narcotics is a deal now for doing stuff like that, I think.
But it’s much, much less than it was back then.
It’s just part of our national fabric, our heritage for big cities that went through prohibition, the depression, and corruption in city government, and then starting to clean it up.
And this is the quintessential story about that, it sounds to me like.
Absolutely. And as I mentioned, there are a lot of these, I didn’t get as much into it, but there are a lot of connections with these gangsters.
Now, Lucky Luciano, he had a, I don’t know how credible this is, but there was a biography or autobiography with a ghostwriter, Lucky Luciano, where he says basically that he and the rest of the mafia were basically running the city and calling the shots. Yeah.
[28:15] He said they were the ones that helped FDR get nominated. And he talks about this Seabury investigation.
So I think that’s exaggerated, but certainly there were a lot of connections at that time. That’s interesting.
That was a last testament of lucky Luciano guys, if you want to try to find, I don’t even know if it’s available, any kind of reprints or anything out there.
And in Chicago, if you think about on up into with JFK and Giancana and he swears that they They helped JFK become president.
And that’s why when he hired Bobby Kennedy and they turned on him, then that’s why they supposedly had something to do with killing JFK.
So there’s like the myth and the facts are always mixed up among each other with the mob and politics and how powerful they are, not powerful.
It’s a hell of a story. I’ll say that. Yeah, absolutely.
[29:06] I really appreciate you coming on, Michael. Michael, you’ve done a couple of other books.
So I’ll have links to your author page and to this book, of course, and you’ve got a couple other, you’ve got one about Theodore Roosevelt and you’ve got one that I found I bought and I found it pretty interesting about the different myths that are fed to us through the popular media and especially the different news channels and kind of where those came from.
And like we said before, a little bit ahead of your time, I think, but we’ll have links to those books out there.
That was the title of the second book. All of a sudden, I’ve got it now.
It’s in the other room. Unreasonable men.
Unreasonable men. Yeah. So anyhow, I really appreciate you coming on the show, Michael.
[29:48] Thanks so much for having me, Gary. I really enjoyed talking to you and I really appreciate you inviting me in.
Okay. All right. Well, guys, I like to ride motorcycles, so look out for motorcycles when you’re out on the streets there.
And if you have a problem with PTSD, remember to go to the VA website if you’ve been in the service and get that hotline number.
And hand in hand with PTSD is drug and alcohol addiction.
And if you want to have a counselor that’s a real deal mob guy or used to be, our friend Anthony Ruggiano down in Florida has a hotline on his website and his YouTube channel.
And you can maybe have Anthony Ruggiano be your counselor down in Florida.
If you ever do that, let me know how it went. I’m curious.
So I really appreciate y’all. Be sure and like and subscribe and keep coming back.
Maybe give me a review every once in a while if you think about it.
And share it and tell your friends about it. We have a good time here on Gangland Wire. So thanks a lot, guys.