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Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. Larry McShane joins the podcast to discuss Vincent “The Chin” Gigante, focusing on Peter Savino, a key player in convicting Gigante. Larry wrote a book, “Chin: The Life and Times of Vincent Gigante,” detailing Gigante’s rise to power in the Genovese crime family. Gary learned that Savino went into Witness Protection and lived out his life in Kansas City. Savino’s role in the Windows case, where mob-operated companies rigged bids for window contracts in NYC, is discussed. Despite health issues, Savino’s testimony against Gigante proved crucial in court. The dynamic between Gigante and Savino, including their business dealings and personal connection, is explored. The podcast delves into the intricacies of organized crime, witness protection, and the downfall of Gigante, showcasing Larry’s expertise in mob history. Larry’s other book on Philadelphia mob boss Ralph Natale piques interest for future discussions.
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Transcript
[0:00]
Introduction
[0:00]Well, Hey guys, welcome back to the studio gangland wire. I’m on the zoom call here with Larry McShane. We were going to talk about the chin, but we’re going to talk more about one of the guys that, that really locked in the conviction on Vincent, the chin gigante back in the day and, and forced him to actually admit that it was all an act. This crazy bit was all an act. Larry, I really appreciate you coming on the show and you kind of are the, one of the experts on Vincent the Chin Gigante, you wrote the book. So first of all, tell us a little bit about the book. And I’ll put pictures of it on the YouTube and I’ll have links to Larry’s book and the show notes, guys. Yeah. The name of the book is Chin, the Life and Times of Vincent Gigante.
[0:49]And it sort of traces his ascension from, you know, the son of Italian immigrants who settled in Greenwich Village, to his rise to the top of the Genovese crime family in the early 80s. I think the Genovese were kind of regarded as, I think the term they used to use was like the Ivy League of the New York mob. He ran it for a good long time until they finally convicted him in 1997, I believe. And one of the reasons, the biggest reason his reign was so long is because he managed to perplex prosecutors by pretending that he had a mental illness.
[1:39]And his lawyers would argue in court that he was not mentally fit to stand trial. And this dragged on for a long time. I mean, there’s famous stories. The cops came to arrest him one time, and he was standing naked in the shower holding an umbrella over his head. And he would wander. He lived on Sullivan Street in Greenwich Village. And for years, he never left there. You know, and you could see him. He had a social club right across the street from the apartment that he shared with his mom. And that’s where he did his business. Conversations about business were not done inside the club. You know, they were very worried about bugs or surveillance. And he and whoever he wanted to speak to would wander up and down Sullivan Street, you know, gigante in his ratty looking bathrobe and slippers. And again, this he took over in 1981 and it took 16 years before they could finally prosecute him.
[2:48]You know, and this is at a time where Rudy Giuliani was really full board taking on the five families in New York. Yeah, Rudy, you know, he started off with the he really built on the windows case. We’re going to get into that guy’s famous windows case to get to the commission case. But, you know, what what got me interested in this, you guys out there, is I found out that one of the main witnesses against him, Peter Savino, did his time and witness protection here in Kansas City. Like, go figure. I got an email from a retired judge friend of mine that said that a gal he went to college with was talking to one of Savino’s daughters about writing a book. And so I started looking into it and I talked to that lady and and she didn’t know much more. She was trying to find the FBI agent who was the control for Peter Savino,
[3:46]
Unveiling Peter Savino
[3:43]Dick Rudolph. And Dick Rudolph, if you’re listening to this, we can’t find you. And that daughter would really like to talk to you and just have a conversation. She has a lot of, like many mobsters, kids have a lot of questions about their dad and how a lot of this happened because it was all a big secret.
[4:01]And then I found another guy that did some business with Peter Savino in witness protection here in Kansas City, and it did not end up good. And the guy is still kind of scared about his mafia connections. And so he was he must have been kind of a bad dude or at least could come on as as a dangerous dude. And that guy won’t talk to me either. That’s how powerful this mystique of the Genovese and Chinchilla Gigante family is. I mean, it’s just it’s a really powerful deal. So, Larry, I’d ask Larry to come on here and let’s talk about this. Peter Savino and where he came from and, and, and how he came up to be that close to the chin to get him put away. So, you know, Larry.
[4:48]I looked him up a little bit and he kind of starts out as a look like a drug smuggler and cigarette smuggler and some things. So on lower level crimes as usual. So tell us a little bit about the early beginnings of Peter Savino. Yeah, he was a guy, as I think you mentioned, that. You know, it was kind of off the radar of both law enforcement and I think like. You know the hierarchy of the genevese family where he eventually found a home you know what i mean and uh you know he uh i mean he’s a guy that wore a wire once the feds brought him in to to get evidence and uh you know gigante had dodged prosecution and conviction for years and uh uh, Savino wore a wire and collected conversations and he was really, you know, at the, at the Ducati trial, they brought in, uh, Sammy the bull, um, and they brought in little Al Diarco, you know, mob bosses to testify against him. But it was really this capo that nobody knew about who delivered a lot of the most damning evidence, uh, against the Chin at trial.
[6:09]How did he get into this Windows case? He developed a company called Arista Windows, I believe. He’s more of a white-collar criminal, if you will. I mean, he certainly would kill somebody if he needed to, but he was more of a white-collar criminal, which the guy here in Kansas City learned. He developed a company, started a company called Arista Windows, I believe was the name of it. Started selling windows to the housing development or the housing, public housing in New York City. Can you remember what about how he got into the windows case? Yeah, he was kind of the architect of the whole scam. This was they set up a bid rigging operation and there were 13, I believe, mob operated companies who were involved in this conspiracy. What they would do is they would get contracts to install windows in city housing all over the city. If you were not involved in the mob cartel, there’s a tax imposed on you of $2 per window.
[7:16]We’re talking about Manhattan, Queens housing, like big developments. You know what I mean? So there’s a lot of money involved here. According to reports at the time, anyone who blanched at this would have their window shattered by the organized crime guys. You know what I mean? And I went back and did a little looking, and it was an enormously lucrative operation. The mob got $151 million in Windows contracts between 1978 and 1989. And Savino was kind of the guy who was running this whole thing. Wow. And for some reason, uh, He’s not a guy that I think people knew until probably the window post case. Gigante just took a shine to him for whatever reason. I’m sure the fact that he was a big earner had, had a lot to do with it.
[8:14]And, you know, chin was a notoriously secretive guy. And, uh, eventually when he went on trial, you know, Savino was one of the big witnesses against him at this point. Uh, Savino was sick and, and close to death. And, uh, so that was kind of his last, Last big shot in the whole war against Chin when he came in and testified, despite his failing health, you know?
[8:39]Interesting. I noticed, and going back over research in this case, the early investors in this Windows case, because all the families or most of them got involved in some manner. So it’s like the Concrete Club, like they were all in the Windows business too. And Vic Amuso and Gaspipe Castle from the Casey family were some early investors
[9:01]
The Rise of Arista Windows
[8:58]in this. they saw the opportunities in Savino. Yeah. Savino was a sharp guy. You know what I mean? You think of the mob and all the things they’re involved in and the idea that there was $151 million waiting for them to scoop up from installing windows in buildings around New York is kind of insane. It’s definitely one of the great mob tales that they got in there and I mean, there’s two things. One, they’re able to gain access. And then two, through threats and violence, they’re able to make the legitimate places sign up for their program. You know, and speaking of violence and that kind of thing, Musso and Casso were some of the most violent guys out there, especially Gas Pipe Casso. And so as one of their guys, 400-pound Pete Scioto.
[9:56]Big Pete. Big Pete. What can you tell us about Big Pete? That’s kind of like the beginning of the end with, uh, with big Pete and, and gas pipe and, and Lucchese is, you know, because of the feds, they put more energy into something. Bodies start falling. So can you remember, what do you remember about that?
[10:15]If I remember this correctly, I mean, big Pete was a guy who flipped after he got riddled with bullets, right? He survived a murder attempt. Yeah. Right.
[10:26]You know, that was at a time where, I mean, there was a time. And particularly within the Genovese family, where the idea of an informant from the inside would have been unthinkable. You know what I mean? You saw what happened when Giuliani came in, and all of a sudden the RICO Act is a thing. And I think guys who were, well, look, any guy that gets shot at and lives has a real motive to go to work for the federal government. You know what I mean? Exactly. I think there was a lot of that going on back then. And Savino was a guy, he never got, in the book I wrote about Giganti a few years back, like Savino was kind of terrified when he got called in to meet Giganti because he didn’t know what to expect. You know what I mean?
[11:13]
The Survival of Big Pete
[11:14]Instead oh look money changes everything right uh so their their relationship was forged in the fact that they could make a lot of money off these windows really you know i remember that big p chiodo he’s 400 pound guy and uh his uh little aldearco really was the one that was given the job to clip big p and and he sent some guys they caught him at a gas station and filled him full of lead, as we used to say when I was a kid. In the cowboy movies, they filled him full of lead. You know, he’s a great big guy. They didn’t hit any vital organs, so Big Pete survived at this gas station. He’s got 400 pounds of armor on him, you know what I mean?
[12:00]You know, great big 400-pound guy, you know, you got to hit the right, you know, if you don’t get him in the head, you know, you may just take out a whole bunch of fat, huh?
[12:09]
Little Al Turns Witness
[12:10]Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, little Al, there’s another guy who found the light of the federal government and became a super devastating witness for them. He did. He did. How did they turn to him? What do you remember about that? I don’t really know much about him myself. He was sort of the acting boss of the family in the absence of gas pipe. And he just started to feel like being the boss of the family is not, you know, it’s a dream come true, but it turns into a nightmare, I think, for most of these guys. Yeah. And he became convinced that he was going to get.
[12:49]He was going to be murdered, you know, as the acting boss. He was at a get together with a couple of guys and he started feeling hinky about the whole thing. He went out, you know, left this meeting and he contacted the feds. And, you know, he emerged as as like one of the first big name, for lack of a better term, witnesses. Very devastating because he had a lot of time inside the family. He had become the acting boss of the family. you know he was a guy that could give you a history of the mob back to uh you know when his finger was pricked at the induction ceremony yeah um and he turned out to be a really a really really devastating witness um i’ll just tell you a funny story i was i was meeting with these guys he used to be federal prosecutors about something and i mentioned uh diarco’s name and the one guy said uh you know would you like to talk to him for your story i was like hell yeah sure absolutely so he calls the number and he puts a he puts it on the speakerphone and the prosecutor’s like i got this guy here who’d like to talk to you al larry mcshane and he starts yelling you know that guy wrote some story about me and the prosecutor took him off took him off you know the speakerphone. So that was the end of that. Al never spoke to me.
[14:13]Al, too bad. That could have been really interesting. I was looking forward to it. I can tell you that.
[14:19]I can imagine. It’s interesting how some of these mob guys will follow their press and then even actually know the reporter, know him by name and follow the press. We had it here in Kansas City, and this one guy, Bill Norton, and the boss, Nick Civella, knew him by name. And actually, Bill lived about five, six blocks away from the boss of the family.
[14:48]I knew Bill pretty well. He’s always a little bit nervous. I didn’t know that Al was following my work. He wasn’t. He wasn’t very happy with at least one story. Yeah, and Muzo and Casso, they were like, they were on the lam for quite a while, but I guess running the family through Al Diarco. That’s exactly right. When those guys get out of New York, I think they went to Pennsylvania. Yeah. Yeah. That’s when Al was bumped up to run the family. And I think this happens in a lot of these things. It’s like, you know, your dream of running the family quickly turns into a nightmare. You know, what do you remember about this Ironworkers local 580?
[15:36]
Labor Involvement in the Scam
[15:32]It’s like that was an integral company in this whole window scam, if I remember right. And the mob guys, Peter Savino, that’s one of his first jobs was in labor or iron workers, local 580. So remember anything about that? I don’t. But, you know, yeah, you make a good point, which is, you know, Savino’s representing the union.
[15:57]And he’s representing the corrupt operation that’s running the union. You know what I mean? Yeah.
[16:03]And, you know, I would say that’s probably a pattern, right? Somebody gets their foot in the door, and pretty soon they’re kicking it down, and they’re shattering the windows of people who don’t want to participate in their scheme. That’s the new world, right? We’re running things, and you’re not, and the Genovese family, and these other 13 companies that were affiliated with the mob are all getting a piece of everything. Yeah, and Sabino was right in the middle of all that. That’s for sure now he was called in uh some meetings with the chin you mentioned that and i i’m looking up about this one after this uh vincent papa was killed and and there was a guy who was claiming control over savino named uh salvatore palmieri uh sally young and and there was some kind of a sit down with gigante that uh peter savino went into and he later would say he He didn’t know if he was going to come out of that alive or not. And, and do you remember anything about that meeting? Well, I mean, I, I think that, uh, Papa, uh.
[17:15]Kappa was hit because there was some drug money involved. Yeah, there was some kind of a drug money. Yeah, it does. But yeah, other than that, I don’t really know all that much about it. Well, Palmieri was actually demoted. He was a Kappa at the time. He was actually demoted to soldier at the time.
[17:34]And that’s when Savino, they called him in to talk about this, and Gigante took a liking to him. And actually, he was transferred then to be part of Gigante’s crew, to be close to him he probably saw the the money making ability in him there was another meeting i believe where uh somebody was accusing savino of coming over to the government and and they burn him and gigante were trying to burn him and gigante even like pulled him in closer because he just couldn’t believe it yeah for whatever reason um you know and as we talked a little bit savino was a little unnerved at first by being that close to Gotti. But for whatever reason, well, I shouldn’t say for whatever reason. There’s a reason. He was a guy that made a lot of money. Chin kind of just embraced this guy to his own detriment, as it turned out.
[18:27]
Savino’s Cooperation Revealed
[18:28]Gigante was a guy who was super paranoid about wiretaps, obviously did a lot to maintain the crazy the act you know the whole thing kind of unravels to some degree, Because Savino, a guy that he brought in, decides to become a cooperator. At that point in time, it seemed like Fat Tony Slerno was people like, Gigante wanted him to be the out front guy. He was like he was the boss.
[19:03]That’s 100% correct. He was the face of the family. The FBI, if you looked at documents from back then, would list him as the head of the family. And Giganti took over in 1981, which, of course, by staying off the radar, he then avoids the big commission trial. Yeah. You know, where the heads of the family, or in the case of our guy, the purported head of the family, takes the weight for everybody. You know what I mean? Right. And in the commission trial, but then the windows case and everything else with Gigante is because of Savino was, you know, it was percolating along all this time. Savino’s wearing a wire on Gigante. It’s just it’s crazy that how that came down. It is crazy in a lot of ways. I mean, one of them is, you know, as we’ve discussed a little bit, Gigante was. was really paranoid about wiretapping. His social club there on Sullivan Street was scanned for bugs.
[20:20]The famous thing is no one was allowed to say his name. They would point at their chin, right? And yet he meets Savino, And, uh, you know, for whatever reason, like I said, they, uh, well, I say for whatever reason, he sees that this guy could be a big earner. Yeah. And, uh, so he brings him aboard, you know, He must’ve just liked him personally too. They must’ve just clicked personally. Then kind of like a sides and that kind of thing for him to put this complete trust in this guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think at the time, too, the family was, and Chin was, very much an anti-drug deal. They didn’t want the Genovese family dealing heroin or anything. He gets a guy like Savino. He’s in the local union. He’s got an inn. And he’s got this plan, right? You know what I mean? And eventually they bring in three of the other families to join in. You know, the Bananos, who were a mess at the time, are not asked to join it.
[21:31]And, you know, they set up this whole bid rigging thing with a penalty for legit businesses who want to come in. You know, they kind of go from there, right? Yeah. I think Gambino’s came in. I believe Peter Gotti kind of got the, if I remember right, Peter Gotti got the nod to kind of represent them. Yeah, that probably sounds about right. You know what I mean? Although I think at one point John Gotti was griping that they weren’t getting a good piece of the whole thing.
[22:02]
Gotti’s Induction Misstep
[22:03]Can you imagine that? I’m looking here at an old clip that I pulled in a conversation in the Ravenite. Gotti says, I never made a dime.
[22:18]I’m sure that might have been exaggerating for effect, but you know. That’s interesting. Everybody else, they made $150 million in windows and just a 10% of that, not even all the little asides you can make off that would be a ton of money. And God, he’s complaining he never got a dime off of it. That’s because he turned around and gambled it, a typical gambler. I talked to a guy who’s a drug dealer and runner, and I said, well, what’d you do with all that money? Because they didn’t have any money now. Now, he said, you know, every time I’d bring a load, I’d go to Las Vegas and then it was just gone. So in God, he was doing the same thing. Yeah. And of course, the chin, you know, as I said, was really no fan of Gotti. You know, he ascends, he ascends by whacking another boss, you know, and at that point, Gigante was was the boss of his family. And not only killing the guy, but in the most public. Right. Yeah. Christmas time. Midtown Manhattan. and I was working that night when it happened. We got a call from our guy at police headquarters. I was at Associated Press at the time.
[23:23]And, uh, he’s like, I, we hear there’s been like a shooting outside spark steakhouse. So they, they tell me to run over there. It was like about five blocks, you know, as you’re getting like closer, you see, there’s all these giant Klieg lights lighting up the street. It’s kind of crazy. And then, uh, and then you get there and there’s the two bodies, you know, Castellano and driver Tommy Pilati, and they’re just splayed out in the middle of the street. Wow. Yeah. It was kind of crazy. That was the first big organized crime story I covered. You know, and what I understand is what really turned Savino was some of his old crimes he had been involved with really before the windows case. It wasn’t really the windows case. That was that was what he had to offer. But I understand that there were some murders. He was involved with this Bobby Ferenga and another guy in some drug and other different kinds of cases where somebody got killed. And, and they, they were, they were making a case cause they turned this guy named Bobby Ferengen and, and, and he was going to give up Savino on some murders that he was involved with earlier. And then that turned him and, you know, the chin probably, you know, he didn’t really know about that. This other thing was going on, you know, he testified kind of interesting case, kind of the final Peter Savino story.
[24:39]If you will, he’s back here in Kansas city, but he gets throat cancer or cancer of the tongue one something around his mouth right he is so sickly by the time gigante actually comes to trial that he’s going to testify and via camera from kansas city although they didn’t know nobody did that at the time except u.s marshals and the.
[25:02]It’s funny you say that i didn’t know that i mean what i remember is he’s in some you know undisclosed location yeah you know he’s he’s he’s appearing as like the star witness at this thing they have a closed circuit set up right beaming it into the courtroom he’s in a wheelchair at this point he can’t even walk this is the testimony right from the guy gigante was like dozing off, uh at the defense table which it raises the question like is he really dozing off is he pretending to doze off, you know what I mean? Defend disinterest. But at the end of the day, the Savino testimony, you know, I mean, Gravano at that point and Al Diarco to some degree.
[25:47]Had almost become like uh professional witnesses for the government right they had both testified for the first time against john gatti in 92 and uh so so by the time and particularly gravano uh came to testify against chin you know the defense lawyers had a plan for him you know what i mean let’s let’s go over the 19 murders and this lie or this scam and you know and they They didn’t have anything like that, really, to use against Savino. You know what I mean? I think he came across as a guy. I mean, he looks terrible on the feed, right? He’s very sick. And I guess the jury wouldn’t have known it, but it was fairly clear that he was on his last legs and he wasn’t going to be around much longer. And I think his testimony, even more than the star witnesses.
[26:36]Was really, really bad for the Chin’s defense. Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. I think you could also testify that he had clear and lucid conversations with the Gen Gigante. He wasn’t really crazy. It was all. It’s really an excellent point. Yes. He was a guy who was face to face discussing mob business on multiple occasions with the head of the Genovese crime family. And there’s not a lot of guys around. Yeah. Who would be able to tell that, you know what I mean? He had he had the sit down firsthand. You know, he was right there. there yeah yeah it made him to your point i think a much more devastating witness as a part of you know the end of gigante and making him forcing him to admit that yeah this was all an act which you would finally do in the end i understand uh they yeah that was uh that was a big uh that’s a big deal uh i went out there for that hearing and uh his son pleaded with him And it was just so weird, you know, because he had to stand up and he didn’t give any speech or anything, but he had to stand up and basically acknowledge, you know, that he was lucid and that he was pleading guilty of these crimes. And.
[27:52]
Gigante’s Admission
[27:52]Yeah, it was quite a thing, I mean, quite an end to a really incredible story. Yeah, there’s another story that I can’t remember where I saw this or who’s reported this, that he was at a meeting with John Gotti and John Gotti was bragging about how he inducted his son into the Gambino family. Because I got a story about that, that, you know, Sammy the Bull actually ran that induction ceremony because Gotti thought it looked bad. It didn’t look good that he was inducting his own son into the family. And his son he was in business with but he did not really want his kids to continue on as the mafia or members of the mafia and so he said you know I’m sorry for you or sorry you did that he said I’m sorry to hear that.
[28:46]Uh, which, uh, but again, in the end, he, he finally, you know, when he’s behind bars and he’s, his options are limited, he finally does get the son involved and the son has to take a plea and do some jail time too. So, you know, even the smartest of them at a certain point have a misstep that, you know, God, he had about 10,000 missteps, which is why he didn’t really last that long. Well it’s amazing he did stick around for seven years right 85 was a hit and he went to jail in 92 which is incredible given the amount of tension that uh tension that was on him and uh yeah you know he he beat three trials before they convicted yeah he was uh he was a survivor that’s for sure, vincent the chin gigante talked to a guy from another city he was a kind of a uh loosely mostly affiliated through some his grandfather and he said oh yeah he said we don’t we we just do this he still didn’t want to say his name he said we just do this like damn this guy hadn’t been in new york since he was a little kid but he still remembered that you know we do this.
[29:59]Yeah it’s uh yeah the ivy league of the mob right interesting interesting long long tradition in the Genovese family. I mean, that’s when I first got into this, when I was like in my early 20s, just reading books about the mafia. And it’s like Vito Genovese was like the mafia in New York. He was the big duck. He had such a reputation. It was just unbelievable. Yeah, different time, you know? Yeah, really.
[30:30]Genovese family was always a force in, even among the other families, yeah.
[30:38]And look at all that happened around him, you know, it was because of Genovese that Joe Veloci came in and was the first guy to really lay all this out.
[30:48]Yeah. Yeah. Well, there’s plenty of them now. They’re all writing books. Writing books, had podcasts. Yes, exactly. You see them on TV. Yeah. Gravano has turned it into a very lucrative business, you know. Yeah, him and Franchise both. I mean, it’s really lucrative for those guys. They got whole big film crews and everything working on their sets and all that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I’m actually, um, it’s funny you mentioned, I spoke to both of them.
[31:17]
The Last Colombo War
[31:18]Uh, I’m working on a, I just finished a new book that’s coming out next year on the, uh, last war inside the Colombo family, uh, which was, uh, Vic arena against, uh, Carmine Persico. No. Yeah. Yeah. That it’s a very personal war. Those two families were very tight for a long time. And then Persico goes to jail in the commission case. He wants to keep somebody in the family atop the company, even though little Vic had been approved earlier. And it just sets this whole, the last of New York’s mob wars. It sets all the wheels in motion. Wow. All right. I look forward to that. Look forward to interviewing you and talking with you about that when it comes out. So I’ll watch for it, Larry, and get a hold of you. All right, guys. I know how to get you.
[32:08]
Reflecting on Age and Loss
[32:09]I know how to get you. Just don’t die between now and then. We’re getting to a certain age. We’re watching our peers drop off, right?
[32:20]All right, Larry, it’s been great. Once again, I like talking to you and guys, Larry McShane, remind us of the name of your book. I didn’t write that down. Yeah, the Chin book. It’s just called Chin. Chin. And then the other one that we talked about before. The one that’s coming out? No, didn’t you have another book besides the Chin, another mob book? But I did a book on a Philadelphia mob boss, Ralph Natale Natale. Yeah. We need, we need to do a whole show on, on that one too. One of these days. Oh, I got some stories about Ralphie. All right. I’m going to hold you to that Larry. All right.
[33:03]
Farewell and Book Recommendations
[33:03]Thank you. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you so much, Gary. It was a pleasure. All right. So guys, uh, don’t forget, check out Larry’s books. You just go to Amazon and type the name Larry McShane in, and you’re going to find his books. And you’ll have a link in the show notes down below. So check those out. They’ll be worth a read, really good information. Larry is a guy that was right on the scene at the time when a lot of this happened and in the court systems and out of the court systems and had his own sources on the street being a New York reporter. So you need to get those books if you care about New York mafia at all. Uh don’t forget i like to ride motorcycles if you see a motorcycle out there why give it some room and watch out for them and if you have a problem with ptsd if you’ve been in the service go to the ba website and get that hotline number if you have a problem with uh drugs or alcohol you know our friend former gambino soldier angelo ruggerio is a drug and alcohol counselor and he has a hotline on his YouTube page and on his, uh, his, uh, uh, website. So get ahold of him. If you, if you use him as a drug and alcohol counselor, get ahold of me. That’s a pretty good story in itself. I’ll put you on the podcast.
[34:18]Oh, I know you won’t want to do that. I understand. Uh, so, uh, be sure and like, and subscribe. I can’t even think what else I want to say. I have to edit this Larry. Like and subscribe and come back and see us again. Thanks a lot guys.
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