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Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. In this episode, Gary interviews Bulldog John Drummond. The listener learns about filming the Chicago Outfit up close and personal. Bulldog Drummond tells about a situation where it got almost too personal for Bulldog and his camera crew. Bulldog and his film crew watched as Chicago outfit associate and enforcer William “Billy” Dauber and his wife Charlotte left the Will County courthouse after the judge continued his hearing for cocaine and weapons charges. Bulldog wanted to follow the couple to find their county home because he had heard it was like a fortress. Bulldog’d editor ordered them back to downtown Chicago because he wanted coverage of another incident at the Cook County courthouse. The crew did not know that an Outfit hit team was waiting to follow the Daubers with guns, not cameras. They narrowly missed becoming witnesses and possibly victims of an Outfit hit team in the act of killing the Daubers.
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Transcript
Well, hey guys, all you wiretappers out there, another show of Gangland Wire back here in the studio. You can see my little library over there. A couple of last legal manuals I’ve got over there, those black and gold things, I need to get rid of them too. So today I went back to an old interview where I did with John Bulldog Drummond. You guys in Chicago will remember John Bulldog Drummond he was a very famous, very well known dynamic TV reporter at the time over the 50s 60s and 70s is kind of cut his teeth on the 1968 Democratic National Convention. Actually, I interviewed him years ago and and we just went on, I just let him have his head and he just told about all his different Bob stories and his relation to him. And he’s got some good ones we start off with let’s see, I had to make some notes here. We started off with what he remembers about Jerry Scalise and Rachel coming back on the airplane from England after they stole the Marlboro diamond and then when they got caught trying to break into Angelo law presenters house, then we go to oh, he he does the whole thing on Tony Spilotro and Lefty Rosenthal. But I think I think the best story in here, and it’s worth going through the early stories, he talks pretty fast, but I know you guys in Chicago will enjoy listening to Bulldog grumman’s voice again. But he almost got caught up in a mob hit of Billy Dauber, who was in a mob enforcer got killed with his wife. So he’s got a really good story on that. He’s got several other stories. A man named John, DeJohn, that he developed as a source was also talking to the Feds that that app the guy got killed shortly after the last time he met with him and the guy was telling him all kinds of good info about the outfit at the time. And it was kind of a minor guy, but he knew some stuff. And the guy got hit about a week later and Bulldog was told by somebody else that this guy was hit because he was getting too close to Bulldog and he was afraid that that Bulldog would expose too many of their secrets on the television on their own his new show. So it’s it’s a fun, interesting, wild ride through 70s and 80s Chicago outfit from the viewpoint of one of your more famous newsman John Bulldog Drummond.
02:29
What happened that day I recall when it happened, it was in 1980. When these two men actually released by the way, he had a reputation as a as an enforcer hit and some reputation found in certain murders. The story broke, the two men had gone into this this jewelry store in London, called graphs, which is a very prominent store of Britain in the Mayfair section. I think it was in London. I’m not sure what it was. But it was a nice nice for what I think was BayFirst. Anyway, they went in there and up and started to rob the place and obtained what was called the Marvel a diamond which according at the time, suppose we had a retail value in 1980 of $980,000. Probably the most larger significant jewel heist we’ve ever had. But according to what witnesses said at the time, the two men go in there, renders these weapons, get the jewelry put them in a bag, including the Marlboro diamond, and one of them had a mask and the mask fell down. That seems like these guys were sophistic I can’t believe what happened. They went out. So they took a car as you would think they took a cab to go back to the airport to the airport and try to get back to Chicago, which they did. But the point was it was all amateurs in this point. They had registered the hotel they apparently they rented a car for initially under their own name, which was left on the scene and they took a cab on the way to the airport, they stopped at the at one of the post offices in downtown London and mail the package to New York or somewhere like that, and authorities did this day. And by the way, the mile border diamond has never been recovered. And the authorities believe what happened was that they mailed that diamond and others goodies to friends or cronies in the United States particularly thought it was in New York, and then they boarded a plane by that time, Scotland Yard had relaxed who these individuals were they had cable to head to the FBI in Chicago and they got off of a plane in Chicago came into O’hare and were arrested immediately and searched but there was no diamond and by the way, I remember the time that made the Walter Cronkite show we were we were aware of what was coming in that shot coming coming through the plane so we got that on the air. And it turned out to be quite a quite a story. They were tried in London and they came were extradited back to the Great Britain and did some time there but the mystery remains in fact Scalise himself it was later when he got out of prison diamond of course is still a big story and as you indicated before on the air that that’s a story in itself but to my knowledge that nothing has ever happened on it nothing at all. Apparently, he’s not a kid he would be a man now about 80 years old and and the other gentleman Arthur brain, Rachel, would it be a little couple years younger? Apparently they wanted to action these men at last report are still doing federal time what they did after they got out of the jail in London in the states in Chicago for a while. The next thing we know They’re indicted on two things. Number one, a bank robbery in one of our suburbs and number two a break in at the home of a feared mob unfortunate one time Angelo LaPietra who was deceased, but her his widow and daughter were living there. And they went and figured that he had money in the house. And anyway, they were arrested again and here were men in their late 70s being charged because I think they wanted the action. I think they wanted action and they went back to prison time even despite they were geriatric rappers. At that times in the last I heard, the two men are in jail, and the mystery of the Marlboro diamond has never never been been solved. And I always thought that the our friend Mr. Scalise, who I talked to I remember at the last trial he was at in connection that is the trial where he was involved in the bank robbery and the break in attempt to break into the house. So this month here former mob figure that he went number one write a book. I think he was figuring in a movie deal because if you might have seen a movie came out at night 2000 Oh eight about John Dillinger. He was used as a consultant at that time. I remember that much. That was before. Before he got involved in the most recent trouble. But my knowledge he hasn’t he had no he can tell what happened with our board diamond. We don’t know to this day was it broken up? I think most of you will. Experts told me they would have been too hard to sell a rock like that. And one piece they think it’s been broken up if that’s the case. At any rate, the mystery the Marlboro diamond is still with us. When the biggest jewel heist of all time. And so far, nobody’s talking. So there’s a mystery for you right there. The opposition was that they were going to the leadership and the author was going to get a cut on it. They didn’t operate independently. No way. There’s no way about that at all. I think that’s what anytime scores like that. Mr. Scalise has always been alleged to have been involved in several major im Ricard robberies in the area and one in Hammond Indiana. There was big loot on those. And of course, when that happened down the of the outfit elders get to course and certainly, that’s why he got the money on that. And that I’m sure it was the same case with that. And I’m sure it also even though times have changed, they will probably totally keep their mouth shut. But of course that’s because that’s 37 years ago, and people are in command and no longer around of course, but they still there’s nothing just happened. And disgraced by the way while he was in London. Here’s a sidebar story. He lived in a suburb of Southwest suburb. And the FBI got from an informant told me there’s somebody’s buried on his property there and lo and behold, they did find it. They opened up they started digging, and it was to at least two people that were gangland slayers veterans that were found when they bought that property. But of course Scalise never had to shed any light on that either. I might ask needless to say, can you say my gosh, that’s you don’t go into a former mob leaders house and break in Formula a newer mob leader was imprisoned by the name of Frank Calabrese and the FBI broke into his house and found out all his jewelry valuables stashed away. So I think apparently, Scalise and Rachel said, Hey, I bet if that guy of that caliber Isa, that kind of those la pietra has the same. So let us go in and get some of that swag figured is there, but they never broke and they were there on the scene. And that’s when they got arrested. And then they had bugged the car, they bugged these guys as well. So they heard the conversations, in fact, abuse amusing thing about it before they went in how they wire this stolen this vehicle ahead. But they’ve met one and then there’s a third man with him who was a lower Echelon guy, and he had to he had to urinate. And he said, I can’t hold it much longer to go into the home right away. But those are some of the sidebar stories with it. But that’s very fascinating story. There’s no denying that they tell you right now, it’s my knowledge. There’s a movie being filmed. Or maybe it’s done in Toronto, Canada, and in Chicago, about Tony Accardo. But the scene is pretty much about the breaking into his house in 1978. And I gotta tell you what that was about what happened was, I kind of was a friend of a jeweler that had a place on the north side and some hotshot burglars done it. I mean, John Mandela was the name of the ringleader from Lincoln, which is a suburb, who’s considered one of the best burgers of the outfit had decided on Christmas time to break into this jewelry store. And you got to commend his hall they pulled out of there. It turned out, however, that the owner of that store was a friend of Accardo. And the man called Accardo, and said, look what’s happened, we’ve had this break in blah, blah, blah, they take this taken that. And because he was a friend of Accardo, Accardo, he was sympathetic to him. And he got ordered and it was outfit break. I mean, they had to pay proceed. Because I believe that top of the outfit, they soon found out who they were and Accardo ordered those people to return the jewelry to him. In other words, to take them over to his house, the jewelry, the money, the money and everything to the house that they got. And then he would turn it back to the the to the jeweler. It turned out that the John Mandela indicated was the ringleader with four or five other guys. And apparently the young guy started to figure Hey, this isn’t right. We do this score. We do our work a perfect job. And now the old man sitting out in California says hey, gotta turn the stuff back. And that’s not right. And they broke into his house. He lived in labor force at that time. He was not there at that time. He was living he was in California, and broke into his house and got the swag bag, got the jewelry and everything got money and all that stuff out of there and apparently Accardo I heard from a FBI agent that he had an informant they caught they had never seen the old man meaning Accardo so angry when he found out that they had broken into his house. He ordered what the story was he wanted these people apprehended and not only apprehended and killed but tortured before they died. Now right away you say how do you how do they know for sure who did well with a robbery in Vietnam we call it blankets. The B 52 is with blanket bombing in other words they just dropped bombs all over the place figure collateral damage you get some you might innocent people might be killed but that’s law of the jungle. We’re gonna get the right people so they started with it’s all of a sudden these burgers started end up in trunks of cars. And it was obvious what that why they were in those trunks because they felt that they were the ones involved in the in the break it. It turned out it was at trial called family secrets. In 2000 oh seven and eight that story came out that the man made the Frank Calabrese had orchestrated a lot of those murders to placate Mr. Accardo. So those are solved as far as the jury was concerned. And several people, including Calabrese were convicted and went to jail. But that was unprecedented breaking and Tony Kardos house was unbelievable. As major businesses indicate there is a movie and by the way, Robert De Niro had the lead role originally. And apparently for some reason he dropped out of it. And the last I heard Sylvester Stallone was taking the place of Accardo. In the movie. The story I heard was De Niro was paid to do this came in and for some reason or that then they had a problem between the producers and I think a French shots that was shooting the picture in Toronto. And there was a fallout between the producers that is the work in the people and the people that bankrolling the French and so there was a thing was held up into them and said I’m out of here and he still got quite a few bucks out of it. And then they hired Salone to take department and the last I heard that this was two or three months ago that they were shooting it and store in Toronto and I assume they must be done with the darn thing by now and they don’t quite have problems when the release date is of that I don’t know. I don’t know the name of the title but I do know that the thrust of it is about a card in the burger. The burger though Carter when they’re in the murder of the of the of the intruders the burgers, interesting. Billy Dauber was man. He was South Suburban resident but his job was to keep the chop shops in line and let me explain what that is the outfit the outfit soon began to find out there was more money when you steal a car not to peddle it in a taxi accident steal 1875 Cadillac break it up and chop it up but there’s more money in selling the parts to it. So the result was that these people who were stealing the honorable vehicles would take them over to the to the yards they called some of these Chop Shop yet some of these auto yards in the south suburbs there was a lot of them and then the vehicles we chopped up and then the parts would be so much more lucrative than it was to sell the car in per se dobbers line drivers job for the outfit they claimed was to keep those yards in line in some of those that were not paying their their street tax to the mob. They were trying to get away with that and his job was to keep him in line. If they didn’t do that he would kill him too. He had the reputation of being one of the biggest hitman in Chicago History. How many people he killed I think a newspaper in Indiana claimed was around 30 I don’t believe that’s that many but he did definitely he was a third guy there’s no question about it. Barbara was but very feared when so happened the government of course was putting pressure on him and what happened was arrested on a minor drug charge and what happened was he started cooperating he started cooperating with Uncle Sam with the Strikeforce apparently naming names as he was responsible for this and that while the outfit soon found out about and Scalise by the way was one of those who found out about it what I was told what happened wasn’t July 2 1980. It will County Courthouse I remember this because I went I went to the cover that story today that it was I know it was a minor miracle minor court case. But I said we need to get more pictures of Billy daughter so I went down with the crew and we got Dawber coming out of the building afterwards I noticed he was very subdued usually he’s very angry hot tempered guy it just seemed like a different personality just went and went by and watches how are you that Ben walked away? We got ready to play a gear away and we came back I wanted to find one of the crew to follow him to his to his doofus home because I heard it was very he was very protected if he’s worried about getting hit it was looked like a castle it looked like almost a fort and the supervisor of the station no no you can’t do that. I got another story for the crew. You come back with a career we got another store for you. So no sooner did I get back to the station. This was in Joliet which is about 4535 45 miles away from the station. I got back into the station in my office. The phone rang. The guy picked it up. I picked it up and he said your pal guy yesterday bang and shown the door down and then I found out later that the the Will County Sheriff’s Office I contacted they said The Robber had been killed along with his wife and leaving they had left. In other words, authorities later pointed out it came up during the trial by the way the family secret trial that Calabrese and the other people the assassins. Were sitting outside the courthouse and we took dauber out there dauber got into his car and they follow Him down a road County Road County Highway to his home and ambushed him there. They blocked them his two cars they block one was a chase car and black human front and then they took shotguns and killed both of them. It’s a very brutal murder. And by the way, also everybody there’s several people indicted in that including Frank Calabrese. His brother was also responsible and a guy named Scarpelli. And again he butchered Petracelli weather filters and also supposedly named in a good friend Jerry Scalise. But nothing ever happened and I Scalise was never charged in that thing. And he never is indicted or anything like that. So that might have been street talk, but Scalise his name surfaced in that murder as well as I’m sure very well remembered. And that was an incredible story. Also, the fact is we got the last moments, I think, after we made that shot of Dauber leaving the courthouse, I think he was dead within within 15 minutes of that time he left. So I was quite a shock when I in fact, I have to admit, I went into the newsrooms because they had another story for me and they didn’t know what to do with this. What are you gonna do? I said, What are you gonna do with this dobre thing? I got videos. I don’t know, maybe we’ll make what we call a voiceover mentioned he was in court today and drug charges. Well, I think it needs a little more room than that. I said the guy What about being hit today’s that was a few more minutes. Why? Because I just had the call. So at least I had the last laugh on them. But to this date, I told if the crew were to follow him, I recommended when I called him I said, I can’t, I’m busy. You got me somebody in the crew following. I want to see his new houses before it had they followed it. Lord knows what’s gonna happen. I told the crew I said, Look at a beautiful with me when it comes out and seeing when the shooting occurred. And you’d have the story of a lifeline of a lifetime. And if you got killed if the guy saw you, then you’d be shot. But here’s the it’s a no, it’s a win win situation, because then your wives would get Double Indemnity. The way you’re going to be winner. They didn’t agree with me on that.
16:12
That woud be a bigger story that he got shot.
16:14
The station the love thatand the numbers would go through the roof. Don’t kid yourself. But Dauber, that’s one murder that was solved that was cleared and as I say, man by the name of Calabrese, Scarpelli and a man named Butch Petracelli, they were involved in and Frank Calabrese who turned state’s was the brother turn state’s evidence. He was one reporter a lot about that. So that’s one murder. That was finally cleared a lot of homicides and gangland murders for years were never been clear from the murder was 1980. So you turn the pages of time back on that. And that only came up because during the family secret trial, one of the killers decided to cooperate with the authorities and spill the beans so to speak, and became the key witness quite in fact, Frank Calabrese and the staff on the stand at the trial had mentioned my name how I made the story. He didn’t say I was outside the courthouse but he said, Oh, we broken the thing or something like that. Don’t know, they knew I was there. All right. Well, actually, let’s face reality in Chicago, at least I can’t talk to other major areas. As far as the mob. There has never been anybody in Chicago that has been killed by the outfit that was not working with the outfit. The only exception with the exception would be back in the 30s. A man by the name Jake Lingle. Jake Lingle was a reporter for the Chicago Tribune and he was shot in the Illinois Central Railroad Station by some of Capone’s gunsils as they call them. And Colonel McCormack, who at that time was running, the tribune was enraged that one of his own men, one of his own reporters, had been gunned down by the Capone mob really well. The next day or two, one of the reporters from the Tribune told the Colonel, I said, Colonel McCormick, I think we better back off on this, because it turns out that Lingle was on Capone’s payroll. So that murder was actually good. You couldn’t say that he was killed because he reported because he had a financial problem with some of the A B for some of the people. And the only person I know that we had a case, believe it or not in Chicago, that of a young woman at the time in 1957. I remember this by the name of Molly Zelko was her name. She worked for a county newspaper in Wolfe County. That’s where the governor was, by the way, expose gambling on her weekly paper, and she disappeared in 1957. She’d never been seen since. And there’s no question about it. She was met with foul play. I don’t think any argue about that. Even advisors always been effect, particularly in Accardo when the private syndicate or they all fit in Chicago was very well disciplined. And Accardo was smart enough to know that supposing they killed a reporter, whether it was newspaper, print, radio, or television, or whatever the case might be, would it be counterproductive because it’d be such so much eat on them. And others would be they’d be a coalition of newspaper people and electronic people putting pressure on the federal authorities particularly to solve that murder and that when a lot of heat they’d been brought up before grand juries A case in point was in 1976. I was not out there. But I remember well, a guy named Don Bowles bol ODS was reporter for the Arizona registered Republic. He was doing some stories exposing mob activities in that Maricopa County. He went to his car one morning got into the will turn on the ignition he was blown to smithereens. What happened after that? 1976 While there was a coalition of newspaper reporters, particularly that came out to Phoenix, Arizona, to put heat on the sheriff’s police in the District Attorney’s Office in Maricopa County. And so that happened that they’ve I think eventually they did clear that case. But my point is, it showed the pressure that the media can put on help solve crimes. And the only other one I remember was Victor Rozelle was a syndicated columnist in New York on labor racketeering, and he had exposed some racketeers. Johnny do and some of those guys in New York he’s walking down the street Manhattan guy comes up to and it says this is for you. Boom. Into acid into his eyes. He was blinded by cases I know of organized crime, where the reporters have been the victims. I did a story with a man by the name of John D. John, that name it does means nothing. We’re going to fight grouping circuits by that name but this fella Johnny D. John, his father was a gangster called Nick DeJohn was murdered out in San Francisco in the 40s. John D. John was a minor hoodlum good Charles and burglary and some check catechizing a few things like that. And he wrote me a letter that he was getting out of jail in Leavenworth and he wanted to tell stories about the mob out of school apparently got disillusioned, so I want him. We did this interview did a piece and he was still at the MCC at that time. He hadn’t been reached the MCC Metropolitan Correctional Center. He done his time in the Leavenworth prison who was doing about 90 days in the MCC going to be released. So I interviewed him there. And then the story where he was he named names and obviously I told Morton before I said, you know, doing this could jeopardize your health and so on. And he said, No, no, I’m gonna have to undergo he was bullheaded to do this. He wanted to insisted on doing this, I’ll go somewhere else. And what happened was he was released. And he called me after he got out of jail. He was living in a hotel, just got out of jail hotel and rushed in the restaurant area there. And he said, I can’t talk and I just gotta we gotta meet. But I gotta be very careful, because I’ve alienated a lot of people. Two days later than that he was killed in an alley, pumped with eight bullets in the northwest side. And I felt there’s no question about it, that I felt guilty in a way on this one, but I still feel sad about it. I think there’s no question that his relationship with me probably caused his demise. In fact, one of the area five detectives said he was too friendly when he got word got out. You spilling the beans talking too much. And they didn’t like that. And then of course, after the incident where he was slain, and that case, I couldn’t know. There has never been that case never got off the ground. In other words, he was just, he was not a big shot. And I don’t think the area fire was, I don’t think there was a great deal of effort to finally clear who it was because he was a hoodlum in those days at one less thing to worry about. In fact, I did interview not on camera, a guy by the name of Popeye was his name. And he was named his name at surface that he was one of the ones that killed this John D. John, but he denied it to me, Kevin, what’s your favorite music? Music? No talk to you. Oh, no. He said I had nothing to do with the John. Absolutely not. So that’s the end of that story. But to this day, until our knowledge Well, I was 1981 who is killed. So that case has gone on. It’s a tragic story. very tragic story with Mr. Johnny and Johnny was not was a tough story he shouldn’t have done I mean, he insisted on doing it. So we went ahead with it. And he paid I’m afraid I have to admit that he paid with his life. And I think that one of the reasons but I can say I’m sure another television station or something else would have done the same. So that’s water over the dam now, I guess but you can’t he also was was singing away to the FBI. So I met there may be a lot of better. I think that was an issue too. Although I think frankly, the real problem was he talked to the media by way I think he almost had that Death Wish he was rigorous but when he was spelling his beans, he knew enough that that type of thing was was could be tantamount to his own murder and it was they would that’s one thing they would definitely reciprocate with violence there’s no denying that Chicago Ma was probably the most feared group and remember it was a very monolithic now there’s no crypto is five crews but they all are under one leadership. Unlike New York we have all those families a lot of money mustache peach run around Chicago is very well this man by the name of Ken Edo. They call them Tokyo Joe he was the organized crime the office expert on what they call the bleeder racket that was a game a numbers game played it by the Puerto Rican people in Chicago. And he was responsible for that among other things. And he was arrested in a gambling raid and apparently the leadership of the mob so in the top of yourself this guy cannot We can’t risk it. He just spilled the beans on us. That was a guy who I think you mentioned he blamed was mainly Vince Alonso so the story was told what happened was that Canada was free on trial free on bond scheduled to go on trial when one of his friends call them and said hey, look, we’ve got we want to get together with a salon on these people and straighten this thing out. Okay, with a major tonight at a certain location these two fellows a man by the name of Jasper Campisi. And a man named John get to sort of pick them up and take him that is he can go to this restaurant where he’s to meet this mob, mob top mob guy to settle this issue to show that hey, resolve this thing. So I don’t have to have any problems. Do my time and I was in he would have done it. Here’s just what they call the stand up guy. Well, they didn’t believe that. So what happened they drove into this parking lot and that was pretty streetwise wondering what the heck they’re doing. He was sitting in the front seat the guy behind him pumps suddenly, like seven bullets into his skull out of a 22 and some of them hit some of them did not some of me but jammed off. At any rate, the man had at least four or five bullets in his three or four bullets in his head. He pained he was dead. And so they jumped out of that car and moved in and ran into what their own vehicle and fled the scene and meanwhile gets up bleeding badly from the head in staggers across the street. There was a drugstore goes in until the people at the pharmacy had been shot called 911. And it was sort of a comedy at that when they call it first. That apparently the dispatcher didn’t know what it was talking about thought it was all baloney. But eventually, eventually, the authorities came onto the scene. The Fire Department took him to a hospital and they saved his life. And right away the Justice Department people came right down there from the Strikeforce and told Edo what had happened and arrow by that time was no longer standing. guy they tried to kill him and that’s when he course he identified the two people that shot him were responsible for shooting again my name Jasper Campisi from suburban River Forest. The other man by the name of John Gattusa, who happened to be a deputy sheriff in the Cook County Sheriff’s Department campaign he was an all time monster apparently he felt he could do what he wanted because the federal authorities down the web at that time I think was the strike was the head of the Justice Department that time in Chicago US Attorney they went to they pick them up talk to these guys to do us gentlemen, Mr. Campion, Mr. Gattuso, what you’ve done you botch this murder your branch this assassination, the outfit is not going to let you live like that. You cannot do that. The smart thing for you to do is come forward, play ball with us. We’ll put you in witness protection program and you live happily ever after. Can breezy thought No. I’m a friend of Accardo have been a longtime pal of these guys. They’re not going to do anything like that. So can Peasy and Kazuko are free on bond. And the next we know these two bodies are found in a trunk of a car in suburban Naperville in a hot July night. This is 1983 the bodies of Campisi and Gattuso were both found they’re both dead, they botched the job and they paid for it with their life. And by the way, there’s another case that has not been solved. We don’t know who the shooters were nobody was ever charged no indictments nothing like that. So there’s another mystery for you. hotshots out there
26:17
the prank Calvary say didn’t know who did that when
26:20
he got to help but they never they never linked it and who did it no they never heard as they said that was settled out of court because they said at the time yeah and that’s so there was never no bet has never been never been cleared as long as it’s been there which is too bad. Second, the high profile cases like the Darpan case brothers that are gin kind of those have never been cleared officially as to who killed who and so on and so forth. So there’s a lot of mysteries left with organized crime murders Don’t get yourself early and solving I think I don’t think there’s any electronic reporter they did a bit more than I did on some collateral. I figured I was the first guy that I remember I was at a gambling raid, and wanted a carpet this was a 90 bucks when I first came on the station I came with one baby and I from Lion vase. 69 It was a rave I work late at night, we have to be 11 that stain is a hey, they got Tony Spilotro here and I’d heard about him before that he was an up and comer. And we’re going to get pictures and some tape of film that tape was filming those days. I’m gonna be covered up at that time. And that’s when I started to have quite a fascination with him because he wants vowed at that time they told me that he was going to rule a Chicago mob someday. And it appeared that he might as it turned out, he moved up the ladder very quickly went out to look after Chicago mobs interested in Las Vegas. And then of course it was killed in 86. And by the way that destroy some guys that he spared myself as to why he was killed. The story was of course mostly the story was told the one that supposedly what happened was the day they tried to rescue is bringing too much heat on the authorities in the mob because of his activities of the jewelry store in in Las Vegas. And that also he had not reported on some of his scores to share with the outfit people back in Chicago. That is some of the jewel heist that he was responsible for there. I don’t think that’s true at all. I think what happened was in my opinion, this is a 1986 that he went back to Chicago this is in the spring of 86 and the meta apparently with Accardo or either met with Accardo either in Chicago or at his home in California winter home in California making a bid to take over because Accardo was 80 and Aiuppa had just been convicted, along with Jackie Cerrone and LaPrietra and the leadership of the Chicago mob. In other words, the leadership had been blown away. And the loan that is collected was making a bid for that along with Joe feFerriola was his only challenger, who was at that time sort of the chief enforcer of the in the Chicago mob and a very, very strong leader. And I think what happened it was a power struggle, I think very old, ordered him killed. He was lured back to Chicago with his brother and they were murdered. And I think that’s what I think happened that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong and probably are but I mean, that’s that’s one version. There’s a lot of people don’t think about and I think that’s really why he was killed. That interview, I went out and did a special online, Lefty Rosenthal, before he even did anything on the network so that he didn’t want to talk much but one thing he wouldn’t talk about was the assumption his life. At the end, when he came out, it was a Tony Romo’s in the air was blown up. And he didn’t want to say too much about his wife, but he had two kids. And he was training to be great swimmers. And I remember he was very embittered about his wife not doing things to help him out. And that was the extent of that, but of course, she died of an overdose in the Los Angeles area when they finally separated but she was a wild one, I guess in a lot of problems there. I’m sure that will involve
29:36
let me get your opinion on one thing Jane Aanne Morrison of the Las Vegas review Journal recently published an article in which she had sources, FBI sources that are now saying that lefty Rosenthal was a top echelon informant during all this time. What do you think about that? It appears to me it’s probably true because he he didn’t even have to come and testify or Go before the grand jury they didn’t do anything to him during the skin trials. What do you think about that?
30:05
You’re right and that’s a good point he got that was back and you’re right at 86 in here he was alive and well at that time. You’re right knowing that he gotta be there no question that he has the gambling acumen was very high. I mean, they thought very highly of him because he could generate a lot of money. And that of course, he was Jewish you know, he’s not he wasn’t part of the outfit in the sense that he can’t ever be made. But you’re right he may have had it’s hard to say what and the murder why he was murdered there like that. And when that attempt on him, whether it had something to do with stilettos with a spell after wanting to do it, I think we’ll never know. But that’s an interesting point. I’m sure the guy on Vegas the writer there with a Review Journal. They got some pretty good sources I don’t doubt that so I would respect what he had to say about it. And the credo that was in summary he was in he was in semi retirement he was still lemurs he was still no question he had two major hits or anything like that. I would think it must have been a cardigan was the volcano that I cannot believe that they would have killed it took the two brothers without Accardo’s Okay, I can’t believe it. I find that hard to believe. Normally overnight you put up and maybe Aiuppa gave them permission. Aiuppa was in jail, but that didn’t mean he couldn’t make good make decisions like that. Across into Kansas, anything came out one in January and the murder was in June. Right now. So
31:13
did Joe Ferriola and then ascend to the head of the Outfit, then did Ferriola go ahead and ascend to the the head of the outfit in Chicago.
31:24
Ferriola? No, Harry, by the way, was a nephew of Ferriola, by the way, he has some clout there with that guy. And I’m trying to think of that time where the hill, Harry was in and out a lot of trouble at that point. And yeah, he was still on. I think he was on he had done some time on that robbery type thing at home invasion, Indiana. I think he was out by that time when that happened. But I don’t think I don’t think so. carrying anything to do with the murders of Spiloltro brothers? I don’t think so. I don’t think carry it. Oh, no, no, sorry. All as being the person that ascended to take over the Chicago outfit. That’s correct. And he was very thought very highly of by Accardo, when I was told, and that he was a neuronal and what happened to him he could have been what happened to Variola was your physical ailments, nothing to do with his decisions with running the outfit, but he had, he came down with cancer. And then he was going with the Houston that the baby, I think it worked on him, I might be sure about that on the cancer. But then he had a heart condition and he died through natural causes. And that left a vacuum and when he died. There’s been a real power of real power vacuum ever since. And I think as far as any strong leadership are concerned, and I think after that, too, that’s when Chicago moved out of Las Vegas. I mean, they did why they did that? I don’t know. They definitely lost their influence out there. Why they do that? I don’t know. But they retrenched after, after the the two boys were killed. And to this day, I don’t know I don’t think anybody really knows why. But they did. And it became sort of an open city. Before that. I think most people felt that that Chicago really had a major voice in what was going on in Las Vegas. That happened before and when they had a guy named Marshall Caifano running the show as well, not just Spilotro. John Roselli led before that, so they got their own people out there for some time.
33:07
Speaking, speaking of Las Vegas, you weren’t let’s go ahead and finish this off with your account of coming to Kansas City and attending the skin trials though. The
33:18
like what happened was to the people who don’t remember that is of course, real leadership. There was probably the biggest thing in my lifetime, then he’s the biggest mom story of all, we had the leadership of the Chicago mom, Kansas City, Milwaukee, and Cleveland all going on trial and taking money or skinny money from Las Vegas casinos. If convicted, the men that were mostly older, were going to spend a great deal of time in prison, perhaps their life. And I went to undercover. Well, we went there every day for it, but we went with the start. Roy Whitman, Roy Williams testified were there also with that, and then of course, later on, and then he had the final arguments in the jury out for some days. And so you got acquainted with these guys betting the breeze, you’re talking to them like sironen off camera, you could do that. But it was a fascinating trial. And I think I mentioned before that Kansas City was smiling up Dave healthway, I think was the prosecutor on that if I recall. Right, and he realized as a hot property I think the Chicago StrikeForce invested subprime in Chicago did not think that was as good a deal. He took it and ran with it. And to my knowledge has been one of the biggest, biggest mobster mock trials you’ll find because the results was it crippled. Really cripple the Chicago organization, the outfit radio staggered them with a top leadership going down. And that was true. Also in Milwaukee, Frank Balistreri, was pleading guilty. Kansas City was disseminated after that trial. And so there you had those three functions, three, three markets that were really battered by what happened and the top leadership of all those those families went down the drain one way or the other. They had either died or pled guilty and so on and so forth. And that were down there as they indicate that I tell you one thing I remember the joint Kansas City, those great restaurants are the Golden Axe and an open house and I remember going to the organizer, the only time I was there, lo and behold, who was there that night we’re in there Joey up and his entourage were there they do a good thing man Are they good? One other story can I give this not mob related but we had many convince Democratic convention I think it’s 70 Whenever one year was done the story was on the golden knocks a friend of my cameraman who’s pretty streetwise when don’t eat and there’s a big line waiting to get in. And he was in line like just everybody else. And he said that Warren Beatty and And who was it who was whether it went I think it was part of his Hollywood entourage came in to see the maitre d to get immediate CD in the course and they were told to go back to the end of the line. It never happened. They got to act like everybody else. And unfortunately, the Golden Arches no more. But Kansas City was like a miniature Chicago and so we had a city that was a big railhead. You had a big meatpacking city there you had organized, strong organized crime town there, great baseball, calm. I remember the Kansas City blues and American association would draw very well and so on and so forth. And of course, you had a very good outfit there too. And it was great. It was it reminded me a lot about Chicago. Very much. So by the way, speaking of Kansas City, I know that the lobby mentioned here element there were stories at the time. If I remember I do people in Kansas a there’s an area right down the river. They’re trying to develop the mob. What am I correct?
36:11
Yeah, but they call it the river key. They had a Mob War
36:15
Harry Aleman was sent down there to keep some of those guys in order. In other words, there’s a couple of murders that they felt he was responsible for. Yeah, well, I have heard that it was I don’t know. Yeah, that was the street.
36:26
I heard that about one of Max. I’ve read it and then in some news article now remember at the time, but I always doubted that story. And we had plenty of hitters here that without important
36:39
recall, one of the guys that was known for going later was killed called Jimmy the bomber Cataura. Oh, yeah, I’ve heard of him. He was part of that Chop Shop. And another guy called, they called him pineapples because he liked a pretty so he could throw them pineapples around.
36:52
I really have oh, that was quite a ride when he’s a great guy to talk to. He was a lot of fun. I hope you all appreciated him. He’s getting really old now. I don’t know. I think he’s still alive. I would have noticed if he was had died. I’ll post some clips of this and shorts of this. I’ll keep them aside. And so when he does die, I’ll do a little bit of a memorial on my YouTube page to John Bulldog Drummond, and he was quite a guy or he is quite a guy. So don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles. So watch out for motorcycles. When you’re out there on the streets. If you have a problem with PTSD, and you’re a former member of the service, go to the VA website and get that help hotline. And if you have problem with drugs or alcohol, no matter what your background is, get hold of Anthony Ruggiano Jr. He has reformed gangsters.com Go to YouTube and just search for Anthony ruggiano Jr. You’ll find his YouTube channel and he’s got a hotline and he works in the treatment center business so you can probably end up maybe working with him if you if you go into recovery. So thanks a lot guys. Keep coming back. I appreciate all the support that you give me and all the comments you make. It’s just been it’s a lot of fun for me is the only thing I can say. It’s just It’s my retirement fun. Thanks, guys.