In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit Detective Gary Jenkins welcomes journalist and author Matthew Campbell to discuss one of the largest antiquities trafficking scandals of modern times.
Drawing on his book The Man Who Stole the Gods, Campbell explains the rise and fall of Douglas Latchford, a British art dealer accused of orchestrating an international network that moved looted Cambodian treasures from ancient temples into private collections, museums, and auction houses worldwide.
The conversation explores the decades-long theft of priceless Khmer artifacts from Cambodia during periods of war and instability. Campbell describes how looters stripped ancient temple sites, often under dangerous and violent conditions, while middlemen and dealers created false ownership histories to conceal the artifacts’ origins.
Gary and Matthew examine the mechanics of the antiquities black market, tracing the path from local thieves and smugglers to wealthy collectors and major institutions. They discuss how fake provenance documents helped stolen treasures enter the legitimate art market and how federal investigators eventually built fraud and conspiracy cases against Douglas Latchford.
The discussion also covers restitution efforts involving museums, including the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and examines the role of private collectors whose acquisitions helped fuel demand for looted artifacts.
Beyond Cambodia, the conversation expands into broader issues of organized crime, corruption, and conflict. Campbell explains how war zones and unstable border regions—from Cambodia’s jungles to the Golden Triangle and beyond—have long provided opportunities for traffickers, smugglers, and criminal enterprises.
Additional topics include legendary silk merchant Jim Thompson, notorious artifact thief Tuk-Tik, attorney Bradley Gordon, and the continuing effort to recover stolen cultural treasures from collections around the world. This episode provides a fascinating look at a criminal enterprise that operated far from traditional organized crime but employed many of the same techniques of deception, laundering, and international trafficking.
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Transcript
[0:00] Hey all you wiretappers, good to be back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins. I’m a retired Kansas City, Missouri Police Intelligence Unit detective, now turned podcaster. And I have a little bit different story today. It’s not about the mob. We’ll get back to the mob next week, but it’s not about the mob. But it’s about something I find fascinating. That’s the trafficking of stolen artifacts. So we’ve done other stories where mob guys have been involved in stealing famous paintings and things like that. And what they do with them. Usually they just disappear into the netherworld. Today I have a man, Matthew Campbell. Matthew has done a study on this and written a book. The book is The Man Who Stole the Gods, A True Story of War Obsession and Global Art Conspiracy. So welcome, Matthew. Thank you for having me, Gary. This really sounds interesting. Like I told you, I usually do the mob, but the publicist teaser, if you will, in the book that you sent me, it got me interested in this. I’m really interested in what happens to this stuff. Are there these secretive art collectors out there that buy stuff and then never show it to anybody? Or how does that work? And you really have gone deep into this in the Southeast Asia area, Cambodia in particularly, and out of Vietnam and the Khyber Rouge situation over there.
[1:15] Well, there’s really a lot of stolen artifacts that came out of there. And you found a man named Doug or Douglas Latch for Dynamite Doug telling his story. So Matthew, tell us a little bit about yourself and then launch in to tell us about Dynamite Doug.
[1:29] So, I am a journalist. I have a day job at Bloomberg. I’m based in Southeast Asia, where I’ve been for most of the last decade. And I do a lot of crime and corruption stories. And in 2019, so this is going back a long way, I saw the news that this British art dealer had been indicted federally in New York City on fraud and conspiracy charges. And I thought, that’s interesting. And then I began reading more about the case, and it got really interesting the more I read about it, because this is a guy who’d been accused of basically orchestrating, one of the biggest art heists ever and trafficking what was stolen into the U.S., largely. So it was this huge, complex DOJ investigation that had gone on at that point for seven years. It ultimately took about 10, 11 years, and just has so many interesting moving parts and rooted in the part of the world where I live, which is Southeast Asia. So it just had every ingredient, I thought, for a great book. Not really. You could go to local sources as well as get the government documents, which would be nice since you’re there on top of it. So this guy, he like the main defendant in this, Douglas Latchford.
[2:46] He was the center of it. There were other people involved. There have been several cases in both state and federal court relating to this whole affair. But yeah, this one dealer, Douglas Lashford, who lived his whole career in Thailand, and was basically the leading art dealer for artifacts coming out of Southeast Asia, he was the guy. So if you go to a place like the Metropolitan Museum in New York, which is very important to the story, their Southeast Asian works in large part came from him. So he was a really prominent figure in this kind of small and obscure and weird world.
[3:22] Dynamite Doug in Southeast Asia’s whole life, did he come out of some kind of CIA operations or war over there? So he was a Brit. He actually was born in Bombay, as it then was, in the last days of the Raj. And he was not a spy, although…
[3:40] Bangkok in the 60s, he got there in 1956 and lived there until he died in 2020. Bangkok in the 60s was spy central, basically. There were intelligence people or people who were in some way connected to intelligence absolutely all over the place. Because, of course, what was going on not so far away, the Vietnam War. And Bangkok was the hub, certainly for the CIA. And, of course, the Eastern Bloc powers were also running agents there. So it was this fascinating, shadowy world that Latchford was in. And some of his fellow dealers and collectors absolutely were spies. Yeah, interesting. And in that spy world, you’ll have these criminals, quasi-criminalers, drug dealers, smugglers of all types that the CIA and the intelligence people use. And so I’m sure there was some crossover with the people he worked with in the spy agencies. Yeah, not necessarily an antiquity story. We know lots now about the connections between CIA and various drug trafficking operations in that part of the world in the 60s and 70s that made themselves useful to the American government in one way or another. It was a very shadowy time. And actually, one of the.
[4:50] Fun things I got to do for the book was track down some of the old-time American expats from that period, some of whom are still around, most of them actually still living in Bangkok, and hear some of their stories, which was just wonderful. Yeah, I bet. I bet it was. So, Dynamite Doug, how did he get that moniker?
[5:10] So, Cambodia, we’ll zoom out a bit. A lot of listeners will have seen or perhaps even visited Angkor Wat, which is this amazing temple complex in Cambodia. It’s the biggest religious structure in the world, way bigger than the Vatican. It’s totally amazing. If you ever had the chance to go, you should. It’s one of about 4,000 archaeological sites in Cambodia, all of which, and I do mean all, every single one, were cleaned out of basically all of the art they contained. They would have once included these huge stone and bronze sculptures, and they are all gone. And they were stolen largely during the Cambodian Civil War, which was an offshoot of the Vietnam War, began in the late 60s, but lasted, unlike the Vietnam War, until 1998. And the looting continued right up until the end. And the reason Douglas Latchford got the moniker Dynamite Doug was the looters, whose works he was responsible for getting out of Asia and selling onto the U.S. market.
[6:14] They had to get these huge stone pieces out of the buildings where they were. And you can do that with chisels, you can do that with jackhammers, or you can do it with explosives. And sometimes they did use explosives. They must have been pretty good with explosives, getting them in the right place, without shattering it totally, but yet break it free and maybe break it in half, and then they could put it back together. Sometimes they did shatter it totally, and a lot of these pieces arrived in New York or in London with a head and a torso separated or missing their feet, missing their arms. It was a really violent process, violent against the objects, but also violent against people because this was a major lucrative criminal enterprise over a long period of time in a country that was awash in weapons. So there were turf battles between gangs of looters. There were episodes in the 90s where you had looters bursting into storage facilities with rocket-propelled grenades and heavy weapons and killing guards. So this was a dirty business. Yeah. You always think of Southeast Asia, think of these warlords out there that have these groups that do different things. You’re really painting a picture of this dark and dangerous world with warlords and smugglers running all over the place. And this guy operated like a ghost or something right in the middle of all that, it sounds. The thing with wars, and the one thing that every war has in common is they all need money.
[7:38] No money, no war. and in Cambodia in this 30-year conflict, everybody needed to fund themselves and.
[7:46] And there are three ways to find yourself in Cambodia, basically. It’s gemstones, timber, and ancient artifacts. And ancient artifacts are probably the most lucrative of those. And then, of course, in addition to that, you have just opportunistic thieves who take advantage of chaos, which happens every time there’s an inner conflict.
[8:05] So now, did Latchford have a smuggling network that he established, and how did that work? So he had a network that extended up to the Thai-Cambodian border. And over to brokers just inside Cambodia. And the brokers would then interface with the looting crews who actually went into temple sites. And information would pass up and down the chain. So Latchford would say, I’m looking for pieces of such and such a description. Can you go find some? And the looters would try. But Latchford’s really crucial function was, he’s what, there’s a criminologist who studied him, called, he’s what’s called a Janus figure. He’s someone with two faces. One face is pointed up to the source country and to the looting crews, the guys with the dynamite and the jackhammers. And the other face, and this is where Latchford gets really interesting, is pointed down to the downstream market. So Latchford was a unique figure in that he had these connections to.
[9:05] The looting sites in cambodia but also to places like the met in new york and to very wealthy american buyers who were spending millions and tens of millions of dollars on these pieces, i guess people would buy them for not only to show off to their friends for their collection but also maybe as an investment because they will increase in value it’s a really interesting world and you have to establish some provenance you have to especially anything that comes from a war zone, everybody is looking at with the jaundiced eye to make sure they don’t get caught out and caught dirty. So how did he deal with that? That’s true now. That was less true in the 80s and 90s, a lot less true in the 70s. Although there were still basic requirements. And what Latchford did, and this is ultimately a big part of what got him done on federal fraud charges, was he faked documents. So, he would make sure that these pieces were sold attached to fake paperwork, saying they’d been out of Cambodia longer than they actually had been, saying they’d been exported on a different date, that they’d been in the possession of someone who actually either never existed or never had the pieces. And that allowed the buyers to satisfy themselves that they were legit. it.
[10:28] One question you could ask is, should the buyers have done more due diligence? And I think that’s very debatable. But Latchford did provide basic paperwork, which was much, in many cases, forged. Yeah. But enough for the Met to say, okay, we’ve got this paperwork. Yeah. We’re good. Exactly. And- Alphabies or somebody like that. Yeah. Ultimately, the DOJ investigated a lot of this, including the Met. And what they found was there had been paperwork. It had been very flimsy, but that was enough and no one really had any incentive to look deeper.
[11:03] Really, and I mentioned earlier about these secret collectors out there, and I see you’ve got something about a billionaire financer named Leon Black, who has a huge Chimer art collection from Cambodia. So, can you tell us about, and even connected the Epstein files, let’s get topical here.
[11:19] Yeah, this is something that actually I didn’t know at the time when I was finishing the book. I wish I had. It would have made a great edition, but we keep finding out about more of these collections. So there’s a distinction between objects that are in museums, because obviously you can go see them, museums publish catalogs online, we know where they are. Whereas private collections, unless someone decides for whatever reason to publicize them, it might be a totally secret, known only to them or people who visit their home, whatever. So bit by bit, we keep finding out about more of these really large Cambodian collections. One of them belongs to Leon Black, who is a very wealthy financial titan in New York City, who was very close to Jeffrey Epstein. And his connections to Epstein had been picked over by probably 100 reporters at this point. And in the Epstein files, the big dump of emails and documents, one thing we learned is that a huge amount of Leon Black’s kind of business and personal correspondence was getting cc’d to Epstein. So it ended up in Epstein’s inbox. And there were right there records of his purchases of statues from Cambodia, some of which have clear connections to Latchford. So that was an interesting little revelation. And it had been heavy spending. He’d spent, I think it was something like $30 million on these pieces.
[12:41] It’s crazy. It’s crazy. You kind of have to think about this on the street level, if you will, or the jungle level. I’m sure it’s a violent, tough world of these looting gangs that go in, and they’re probably in competition with each other, in competition with the local authorities that steal this stuff, and then they end up in the Met. It’s just this huge contrast that I find fascinating as heck. Yeah, that’s one of the things that drew me to this story is it literally runs, and this sounds crazy, but it actually does literally directly run from the Khmer Rouge killing fields to Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, which I’ve never come across something like that before, and I doubt I ever will again. Yeah. Yeah, because even like the drug networks, the China White, the opium and everything comes out of the Golden Triangle. It just ends up on the streets in New York, but this ends up on Fifth Avenue, like you said. Very nice streets, yeah. Very nice streets, much nicer streets. I was just in the Golden Triangle. We can talk about that later. That’s the world I know well. Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah. We’ve all heard of the Golden Triangle. I just used it like I knew something about it. I know that it’s a part in where three countries, I think, come together,
[13:54] Cambodia, Thailand, and Vietnam, maybe up in that area. Tell us about that. So the Golden Triangle, this is such a fun and interesting sideshow. Nothing to do with the book, but very interesting. And I’ve spent a lot of time working in this part of the world. So, Golden Triangle is the very top of Thailand.
[14:10] Where I land at the borders of Thailand, Laos, and Myanmar only. And there’s actually a spot where you can walk up a little hill and you can see all three countries. And what’s interesting about the Golden Triangle is it’s always been lawless, in the way that peripheral places can be. It’s a long way from the capitals of all three of those countries. And it’s been a safe haven for organized crime since the 50s basically because it’s a place you can set up you can buy off local officials you can move drugs so the big business there was heroin for a long time then it became meth, now it’s something completely different which is scam centers like scam compounds where you have thousands of people ringing up people in the u.s for people in Europe to try to get them to make crypto investments. And… A reality of our world is borders are really tough to deal with for law enforcement yeah when something’s over the border you can’t touch it and that’s true for the us that’s true for thailand it’s true for everybody and that’s what criminals in that part of the world have been counting on for 75 odd years now.
[15:18] What was what was one of the more interesting pieces that that he that ended up say in the met that is there a story about that that then the government found hey pointed out hey, this was stolen?
[15:31] Yeah, so there were a number of pieces that Latchford either sold or handled, that went directly from him or from him through kind of one other layer of transactions right into the Met, where you could see them on Fifth Avenue in the most important museum in the U.S. And they, in 2011, got to investigating a different piece, which had come through Sotheby’s. And they were able to determine where it would come from, this temple called Koh Ker. And the Cambodians, as part of this investigation, excavated the site because we could only see sort of small parts of what there was. We didn’t know everything that was there. And when they dug down a few feet, they found a large number of empty pedestals, over a dozen empty pedestals, which had on them, and there are incredible photos of this, broken off feet stone feet or broken off lower limbs in stone and with modern software you can do amazing things for example you can take a 3d image of something from the met, and you can superimpose it onto an image of this broken pedestal and see for example where the legs line up and so that’s this incredible moment where you think oh my god.
[16:52] We know exactly where this was stolen from. And thanks to interviews of people in the area, investigators were able to figure out exactly when it was stolen. And those pieces, the answer was in the mid-80s. And the Met had to give them back because it just was not a good look. Yeah, that was my next question. Then what’s that procedure? What happens then when you go to this world-class museum that’s managed by the top art people in the world and has the biggest, the most
[17:20] richest donators, supporters in the world. How does that work then? You have to approach that a little bit gingerly, but you got to do something. How does that work? There’s a few ways it can go down. Sometimes, and we should acknowledge this, there are cases where you have activist groups or the government of a country like Cambodia, not necessarily Cambodia, it could be someone else, will just approach the museum or a museum or a big collector and say, we have evidence, this is dirty, could you please give it back? And there are cases where they do give it back voluntarily. What has happened more frequently and is almost certainly more effective is either the Department of Justice or state prosecutors in New York. The district attorney in Manhattan.
[18:11] Has a very active team who works on ARC cases. They will approach a collector or a museum or an auction house and say, we have evidence these works are dirty.
[18:27] We would like you to give them back and let us send them back to the country where they came from. You can do that and we’ll do a nice press release thanking you. Or we can look at how else we might get them back if you don’t want to do it voluntarily. And at that point, it’s an IQ test, I think, where you’d much rather do this the easy way. But not everyone goes there. And so you do end up with litigation. You do end up with criminal charges occasionally. And as a journalist, I love litigation, of course, because it throws off all kinds of interesting documents. Yes. Yeah, anything that ends up in court for us is fantastic. Yeah,
[18:59] the journalist Fred is litigation, that’s for sure, when you’re working on a story. But were there any Indiana Jones kind of characters you ran into in this world that are freelancers going out trying to find lost art or recover it or anything? I had a guy on, the reason I ask, I had a guy on here that his main thing is go out and run down stolen classic cars. That there’s a big market and he’s stolen high-end, two or three million dollar cars. There’s a market in this, worldwide market in that. Did you run any of those kind of guys? Yeah, on both sides. So there are two characters in the book who are of that description. One is a master thief, a guy called Tuk-Tik, who was a former child soldier in the Khmer Rouge, who actually escaped the Khmer Rouge, which was impossible. No one escaped the Khmer Rouge. It’s an unbelievable feat of survival. But he managed to run away and he hid basically until the end of the regime.
[19:57] And then he emerged into this shattered society. Like Cambodia in the 80s was poor and violent on a level that’s almost impossible to describe. And he needed a way to survive. And he figured out that he could steal statues. And he got very good at it. And by the end of the 80s, he was running a big organized operation with hundreds of people. Big supplier to Latchford. And then there’s another character in the book who intersects with Chuck Tick’s story later, an American lawyer. Who was living in Cambodia, is living in Cambodia, continues to, was hired by the DOJ, in some of its early investigations to do some investigation on the ground and then ended up working for the Cambodian government and became a really effective, tracker of these stolen works around the world, which requires real detective work. Because you’re matching up historical records, you’re doing interviews with witnesses, you’re looking for things that may have disappeared after they were sold once. You have no idea where they went. So it’s fascinating and really complex investigative work. Yeah, that would be. He has to have a lot of sources out there that will call him in and say, hey, I got this. This is going here. Exactly. Just have to have a ton of sources. And then you got a language problem over there and you got a culture problem. When you’re American over there trying to work with local people.
[21:18] Yeah, he’s a very interesting guy. His name’s Bradley Gordon. He’s lived in Cambodia 20-odd years now. He speaks enough of the language to get by. He also speaks Thai, which is helpful, and has integrated more or less completely. He actually became a Cambodian citizen. So he has really good links. And actually, it was probably essential that they had someone like that who could both interface locally and be the liaison with law enforcement in the U.S. Yeah. Because no one in the Cambodian system or very few people in the Cambodian system would have been able to serve that function. Whereas this guy, he’s a U.S.-trained lawyer who knows how things work over here.
[22:01] Yeah he would be invaluable to be integrated in that culture but also in the american culture too i would it’s really hard to find i would imagine, yeah totally unique figure and actually one of the things i try to do in the book, is show how his story and latchford’s story have certain parallels just in the opposite direction where he’s laughing atford was ripping stuff up Gordon is trying to gather it up and bring it back. And similarly, they were both kind of intercultural interfaces between Asia on one hand and the U of S on the other, just for very different aims.
[22:38] Huh, interesting. Latchford now, what was his life, his day-to-day life like? Like he lived in a small, large town or the capital or out in the country. What was his day-to-day life like? He had a fascinating life. So he, despite being, I think, a pretty evil character, learning about his life was really interesting. So he came to Bangkok in 1956 when he was in his 20s. And listeners who’ve been to Bangkok will know now it’s like Tokyo. It’s a massive metropolis. It’s skyscrapers and luxury stores and all that. It was not like that in the 50s. It would have been, you would have really been embarking on quite an adventure to live there as a foreigner. But he integrated very well. He started a very successful business selling pharmaceuticals. A big part of his story also was that he was gay. And at the time, you could be not exactly completely openly gay, but much more open than you could be in New York or London. So that was part of it. And he, at the same time as he was building this business, developed this total consuming obsession with these works of art from Cambodia. First, just collecting them, then collecting and selling a bit on the side, and then as a all-out dealer who became someone who ran a large commercial operation.
[24:06] When are they going to make the movie? The gay American expat who is totally, into the local society, then, starts stealing or developing these networks to steal pieces of art and ship them back to New York and to London. You can’t make that stuff up. And there’s another character. So Latchford was a Brit, but the person who came before him was American. An amazing guy who I don’t think anyone’s ever made a movie about. They absolutely should. Called Jim Thompson, who came out of the OSS. So he had been dropped into southern France in, I think, 1944, got six Bronze Stars, which had some incredible service record, and then was sent by the OSS, which then became the CIA, I think, in 1947, to Thailand to make sure that Thailand, newly independent, or regaining its independence after the war, would be a U.S. ally. So, Thompson did that. He eventually leaves the CIA and goes into private business. He’s also a huge art collector and a dealer and bought all these amazing pieces. He built this incredible house in Bangkok, which still stands. He can still go and visit. And then in 1967, he is on vacation in Malaysia.
[25:21] Goes for a walk on a Sunday afternoon and never comes back. Disappeared without a trace. No one’s ever found so much as a finger bone. Just vanished from the face of the earth. And just a legendary character who I think deserves to be better known. Yeah.
[25:38] He had stepped on somebody’s toes, hadn’t he? That’s one theory, yeah, that he’d made some enemies. Disappeared something like that. Yeah. He didn’t just dive in a canal and go to the bottom and never come back up, I gotta think. No, I don’t think so. You got to have some help if you disappear totally, I would say. When are you going to start on the screenplay on all this? This is fascinating stuff. Soon, I hope. There is a book to Hollywood pipeline, though it’s easy to get interest. It’s very hard to get anything made. Yeah, I tell people that all the time. I’ve talked to enough of you authors, and guys will say, boy, they need to make a movie out of that. I’ll say, I’m going to tell you something.
[26:16] Getting a book and all the way into a movie is, it’s lightning in a bottle capturing lightning in a bottle it’s yeah it’s a very narrow funnel and a lot of ideas go in one end and a tiny number of films come out the other yeah there are that’s this is a really fascinating story, I guess it reminds me a little bit of who was the newsman Jake Edelstein in Tokyo Vice yeah that was the newspaper reporter in Japan that fantastic book the yakuza yeah that was a really good book tried to get him to come on the show and i he’s got his own podcast i noticed now and i ain’t even responded i may have to try him again i’d read his stuff and it was just so fascinating i’d like to talk to him he’s from st louis it’s only about three hours from here anyhow so matthew what maybe what’s your favorite story out of this book, what i really enjoyed was understanding how the market came to exist any illicit market.
[27:14] If there’s demand, the demand will be served. So that’s true of fentanyl, it’s true of firearms, it’s true of classic cars, whatever. If people want it, there are going to be criminals who emerge to provide it. But I didn’t really know when did there begin to be demand for these objects? When did people in the U.S. with money to spend really start to want them? And the answer, and this was a really fun and interesting bit of history to dive into, is it’s a story about the 60s. That in the late 60s, what was going on in pop culture? The Beatles were going to meditate with the Maharishi in India. Yeah, transcendental meditation is taking off. The Hare Krishna movement, who, believe it or not, were founded in New York City. So suddenly, out of nowhere, and the Vietnam War has something to do with this too. Out of nowhere, there’s this cultural fascination with Hinduism, with Buddhism, with India, with Southeast Asia. And that then feeds into what people want. It feeds into what museums want to show. And it feeds into what collectors are willing to spend big money on. And so I had a lot of fun in the book kind of tracing that history and how it lined up with Lashford’s business and his ability to source these amazing, totally stolen objects. Yeah. It’s just a source of narcotics. If there’s the demand out there, somebody’s going to appear.
[28:38] And if there’s no demand, that guy, he’s going to have to go run a cab company or something. Do something else. Look at, like, how many tens of billions of dollars have been spent trying to stop fentanyl coming into the U.S.? And it still comes because people still want it. Yeah. And how much press about people dying from fentanyl, people just touching fentanyl and dying. It’s ubiquitous. It’s all over the place, but yet,
[29:02] There’s a demand for it, and it’s going to keep coming, that’s for sure. Same way with that artwork. I would imagine that in modern times, that artwork is probably that trafficking in artwork like that has slowed down a little bit. Do you see any difference in current times? And it’s probably rocking and rolling in the 60s and 70s around the war. So it’s changed. It would be a lot harder to move an obviously stolen piece into a big museum or a big auction house now than it used to be.
[29:32] For sure. However, every time there’s a war, art gets stolen. It’s one of the first things that happens. Currently in Sudan, there have been tons of art and artifacts stolen. It’s happening in Ukraine. It happened in Syria. It happened in Iraq. When the U.S. military got into Iraq in 2003, there was this period between when the invasion started and when the country was under control and secured of a few weeks. And in that period, all kinds of archaeological sites were cleaned out. All kinds of museums were cleaned out by people who knew what they were doing, who knew what to look for.
[30:08] So, we don’t really know where a lot of this is going, but clearly the demand exists because if it didn’t exist, the criminals wouldn’t bother with thefts like this. And as I said, it is still going on. So, there was a big Sudan last year. The National Museum in Khartoum was ransacked, basically, and everything was taken. Wow. Yeah. These governments, as they become less effective, there’s no established order. And if you got museums, why, it’d be a no-brainer to go in and take them. And there’s market exists. As long as that market exists, they’re going to do it. That’s crazy. Exactly. All right, Matthew Campbell, The Man Who Stole the Gods, A True Story of War Obsession and a Global Art Conspiracy. It’s a really interesting read, guys. Matthew, I really appreciate you coming on the show. You got any last words here? Just to say the book is available anywhere books are sold, and I hope people read it, and it inspires them to see the world in a new way. Okay, Matthew, thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank you, Gary.