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In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, continues his deep dive into organized crime history with prolific Mafia author Jeffrey Sussman. Sussman, the author of eight books on organized crime, joins Jenkins for a wide-ranging conversation that spans the rise, violence, prosecutions, and survival tactics of La Cosa Nostra in America. Drawing from works like Backbeat Gangsters and his latest release Mafia Hits, Misses Wars and Prosecutions, Sussman offers sharp insight into how the Mafia enforced silence, eliminated enemies, and adapted to government pressure.
The discussion opens with omertà, the Mafia’s infamous code of silence, and how mob warfare enforced loyalty through fear. Sussman recounts notorious hits and mob wars that shaped organized crime, then shifts to landmark prosecutions led by Thomas Dewey, whose relentless pursuit of Murder Incorporated dismantled the mob’s most feared execution squad.
Jenkins and Sussman examine the disastrous Appalachian Conference, where Vito Genovese overplayed his hand, drawing national attention to the Mafia and setting the stage for informants like Joe Valachi to break decades of secrecy.
The episode also explores the Mafia’s darkest execution methods, including lupara bianca—murders designed to leave no body and no evidence—along with chilling stories involving Mad Sam DeStefano. The assassination attempt on Joe Colombo, and its ties to Joey Gallo, highlight how ego and publicity often proved fatal in the mob world.
The episode concludes with Sussman previewing his upcoming book on the Garment District, blending personal family history with organized crime’s grip on American industry. Together, Jenkins and Sussman deliver a sweeping, chronological look at how the Mafia rose, fractured, and endured—leaving a permanent mark on American culture. Get his book Mafia Hits, Misses, Wars, and Prosecutions.
⏱️ Episode Chapters
00:00 – Introduction and Jeffrey Sussman’s Mafia work
03:45 – Omertà and enforcing silence
07:30 – Mafia hits and internal wars
12:10 – Thomas Dewey and Murder Incorporated
18:40 – St. Valentine’s Day Massacre
23:30 – Formation of the Five Families
28:50 – Italian and Jewish mob alliances
34:20 – Capone, Lansky, and Luciano
39:45 – Appalachian Conference fallout
45:10 – Vito Genovese and Joe Valachi
50:30 – Lupara blanca and body disposal
55:20 – Mad Sam DeStefano’s brutality
59:40 – Joe Colombo assassination
1:05:30 – Betrayal and mob survival
1:10:50 – Sussman’s upcoming Garment District book
[0:00] Hey, welcome, all you Wiretipers, back here in the studio of Gangland Wire, as you can see. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective and later sergeant. I have a guest today. He is a prolific author about the mob in the United States. We have several interviews in the archives with Jeffrey Sussman. Welcome, Jeffrey. Thank you, Gary. It’s a pleasure to be with you once again. All right. How many mob books you got? Eight or nine, I think. Eight or nine. I know you’ve covered Tinseltown, the L.A. Families, the crime in L.A., the Chicago. What are some of those? I did Las Vegas, which had a number of the Chicago outfit members in it. I did Big Apple Gangsters. Oh, yeah. My last one was Backbeat Gangsters about the rock music business. Oh, yeah. And then I did also one about boxing and the mob, how the mob controlled boxing. And then my new book is Mafia Hits, Misses Wars and Prosecutions. The update is February 19th. All right. Guys, when I release this, we’re doing this, actually, we’re doing this before Christmas. But when this comes out, while you’ll be able to go to the Amazon link that I’ll have in there, get that book, we’ll have, you’ll see a picture of it as we go along. So you’ll know what the cover looks like. It sounds really interesting, especially about the Mafia Misses. But I’m sure that’s interesting.
[1:29] Well, the mob, that’s their way of enforcing their rules. The omerta, somebody talks, they’re going to rub you out, supposedly. And by mob, we’re talking about primarily La Cosa Nostra, Sicilian-based organized crime in the United States. Yeah. The five families particularly have brought this up front. The five families have really perfected this as an art, killing their rivals, killing people that threaten them in any way, killing people that they even had a contract on Tom Dewey, the prosecutor, I believe, at one time. That would be a bomb miss, wouldn’t it? Yeah, actually, what happened with that is Dutch Schultz wanted the commission to take out a contract on Tom Dewey, and they said, no, we can’t do that, because if we do that, it’ll bring down too much heat on us. And so the mob wound up killing Dutch Schultz because he was too much of a threat to them in some ways. But the irony was that if they had killed him, Lucky Luciano never would have been prosecuted. He was prosecuted by Thomas Dewey. Lucky Bookhalter never would have been prosecuted and gone to the electric chair, several others as well. So, by not killing Dewey, they set themselves up to be arrested and get either very long prison terms or go to the electric chair.
[2:57] Yeah, Dewey sent, I think it was four members of Murder Incorporated to the electric chair and the head of it, the Lepke book halter. And then he arrested and got a conviction against Lucky Luciano for pimping and pandering, which should have been a fairly short sentence, just a couple of years. But he had him sentenced to 50 years in prison, which is amazing, the pimping.
[3:20] So if they had killed Thomas Dewey, they probably would have been better off. But that’s 2020 hindsight. Yeah, hindsight’s always 2020. And a cost-benefit analysis, if you want to apply that, why the cost of killing Tom Dooley might have been much less than the actual benefit was. That’s right. Exactly. And they came to realize that, but it was too late for them. I think they always do a cost-benefit analysis in some manner. How much heat’s going to come down from this? Can we take the heat? Because I know in Kansas City, our mob boss, Nick Savella, was in the penitentiary. He was about to get out, and he sent word out, said I want all unfinished business taken care of by the time I get out. Because when I get out, I do not want all these headlines, because murder generates headlines. And so there was like three murders in rapid succession right after that.
[4:13] So they worry about the press and hits, murders generate press. So let’s go back and talk about some particular ones. One of the most famous ones was the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. Do you cover that?
[4:26] Yeah, I start with the assassination of Arnold Rothstein in 1928, and then I go right into the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. I go into the Castel Marari’s War, the birth of the five families. They had a famous meeting at the Franconia Hotel where the Jewish and Italian gangsters decided to form an alliance rather than fight one another. I went through the trial and conviction of Al Capone, the Bug and Meyer gang. Which evolved into Murder Incorporated, and then how Mayor LaGuardia went after the mob in New York and drove out Frank Costello, who had all the slot machines in New York, drove him down to Louisiana, where Frank Costello paid Huey Long a million dollars to let him operate slot machines all around New Orleans and the rest of Louisiana. And then there was William Dwyer, O’Dwyer, and Burton Turkus, who prosecuted the mob, other members of Murder Incorporated, and then how the federal government was using deportation to get rid of a lot of the mobsters, and how the mafia insinuated itself with entertainers and was controlling entertainers like Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis and others.
[5:44] And then the Appalachian Conference, and what an embarrassment that was to Vito Genovese, who wanted to declare himself the boss of bosses. Instead, he became the schmuck of schmucks because the FBI invaded this. And there was a theory that this was really set up, Meyer Lansky, Carl Gambino, and Lucky Luciano, because they didn’t want Vito Genovese to become the boss of bosses because Vito Genovese was responsible for the attempted murder of Frank Costello, and they wanted to get rid of him. After they embarrassed him with Appalachian, And then they set him up for a drug buy. Which is ridiculous because you don’t have the head of a mafia family going out on the street and buying heroin from someone. But that’s what they got him for. And they sent him off to prison for 15 years where he died. But in the realm of unintended consequences, which we just heard some, he goes down to Atlanta and a guy named Joe Valacci is down there. And he thinks that Vito Genovese is given to the fisheye and maybe wants to have him killed.
[6:52] If Vito Genovese is not in Atlanta, Joe Valacci does not turn and become the first big important witness against the mob in the United States that couple that with Appalachian. And embarrassment to the FBI and then this Joe Valacci coming out with all these stories explaining what all that meant, the organized crime in the United States, why we may not have the investigation that subsequently came out of all that. It’s crazy, huh? Yeah, exactly. In terms of unintended consequences, because if Vito Genovese hadn’t given the kiss of death, supposedly, to Joe Valacci, you never would have had Joe Valacci’s testimony about how the mob operates. He opened so many doors and told so many secrets. It was a real revelation to the world.
[7:42] Now, what about these murders? And I understand they call them a lupara blanca, where the body is never found. Did you talk about any of those or look into that at all?
[7:53] We’ve had them in Kansas City, where it’s obviously a mob murder. They even will send a message to the family. We had one where the guy disappeared. Nobody ever found his body. But somebody called the family and said, hey, go up on Gladstone Drive and check this trash can. And then they find the guy’s clothes and his driver’s license, everything in there. Now, did you go into any of those blanks? Yeah, there were a number of mob hits, especially during the murder ink era where they would dispose of the bodies and no one would ever find them. But they would leave clues around for members of the family just so they would know that their father or their son or their brother, whoever was no longer in this world.
[8:39] Yeah, that was done quite a bit. And when the Westies, which was an Irish gang that operated on the west side of New York, they believed that if you never found the corpse, you could never convict them of murder. So they used to take their dead bodies out to an island in the East River and chop them into little pieces and then dump them in the river and no one would ever find them. And supposedly they did that with dozens and dozens of bodies. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, and it is. It’s hard to prosecute without the body. It’s been done, but it’s really hard to do. You’ve got to have a really lot of circumstantial evidence to approve a murder without a body. And when Albert Anastasia and Leffy Foucault, who were running Murder Incorporated, they believed two things. One, that if you didn’t find the body, it would be hard to prosecute. And if you couldn’t show a motive, that would be the other thing that would make it difficult. So there would be absolutely no connection between the person who killed the victim and the victim. There was no connection whatsoever. So it was almost as if it was a stranger. In fact, it was a stranger who would commit the murder and then disappear and make sure that the body also disappeared. So you’d have neither motive nor body. Interesting. Pretty stiff penalty for murder. So I understand why you take some extra. Exactly.
[10:08] Yeah, that tried to disassociate yourself from any motive for the body. There’s a guy in Chicago named Mad Sam DeStefano. Oh, sure. Lone shark and particularly egregious person when it came to collecting and was responsible for some murders and tortures. And they claim that he would buddy up to the person he knew he wanted to have killed and give him a watch. So then when the police came back around, he’d say, he was my friend. I gave him a present. I gave him that watch. Look and see. Ask his wife. I gave him a watch. Yeah. And I think it was Anthony Spolatro who was charged by the outfit of getting rid of Sam DiStefano because he was a friend. He had been like a protege of Crazy Sam. And so Sam didn’t suspect him as the person who would come and kill him. Yeah, that’s common clue. They say, look out. When a friend comes around and it seems a little bit funny and they want her particularly nice to you and you know you’re in trouble, anyhow, look out. Because that’s the guy that’s going to get you. Exactly. At least set you up. Maybe they have somebody else come in and pull the trigger, somebody that’ll leave town or whatever, but your friend’s going to set you up, make you comfortable.
[11:24] Yeah, I think that’s exactly how it happened. We talked a little bit about the Joe Colombo murder. Did you look at that? Yes.
[11:31] Tell us about that, because I’m really interested in that. I’d kind of like to do a larger story, just focusing on that, what really happened there, because that’s a mystery. Did this Jerome Johnson, this black guy, do it? Why would he do it? Nobody ever came out and connected him directly to Joey Gallo, and that’s the claim. So talk about that one. What happened is Joe Colombo formed the Italian Anti-Defamation League because he thought Italians were being blamed for too many things. And Colombo was responsible for having the producers of the movie The Godfather never use the word mafia in the movie, never use La Cosa Nostra in the movie. And he was making a big splash for himself. And this was driving a lot of people in the mafia a little crazy. They’re getting nervous because he was getting so much attention for himself, and it’s not the kind of attention they wanted. And Gambino was particularly upset about this. And Joey Gallo had been in prison, and he had been involved in the war against Profaci earlier on. And when he got out of prison, he felt that the new head of the Profaci family, who was Joe Colombo, should honor him with the amount of time that he spent in prison. And Joe Colombo offered him $1,000.
[12:57] And Gallo was incensed by that. He expected $100,000.
[13:02] And so he started another war with Colombo.
[13:09] This would be good for Carlo Gambino because then he could use Joey Gallo to get rid of someone and his hands wouldn’t appear to be anywhere near this. And when Joey Gallo was in prison, he befriended a lot of black gangsters who were drug dealers and showed them how to succeed in the drug dealing business. And his attitude was that the mafia was very prejudiced against black people, but he thought that was stupid. He thought that we should use black criminals the same way we use any other criminals. And so he befriended a lot of blacks when he was in prison. And no one really knows how exactly he came in contact with Jerome Johnson. But anyway, Jerome Johnson was given the mission of assassinating Joe Colombo at a demonstration where Joe Colombo would be speaking about the Italian American Anti-Defamation League, which had attracted a lot of entertainers. Frank Sinatra was on the board of it. They raised a lot of money. I spoke to some Italian friends of mine at the time, and they said that people from the Italian Anti-Defamation League went around to small Italian-run stores, pizza parlors, shoe repair stores, whatever, and had them closed down for that day so that these people should attend the rally. And the rally was being held, I believe, in Columbus Circle.
[14:36] And Jerome Johnson was there, and he had a press pass. So he was permitted to get very close to Joe Colombo because it appeared that he was a reporter or a photographer for a newspaper. And as soon as he got close enough, he pumped a couple of bullets into Joe Colombo’s head. Immediately, three or four gangsters descended on Jerome Johnson and killed him immediately.
[15:02] And those three or four people who killed him, they disappeared into the crowd. No one ever found them again. I know. I wish we’d had cell phone footage from that. No one wouldn’t have gotten away if everybody had their cell phones out that day when they would have seen everything that happened.
[15:21] Exactly. Columbo existed in a vegetative state. I think it was for about seven years before he finally died. I didn’t realize it was that long. Wow. Yeah, but he was semi-conscious. He couldn’t communicate. He was paralyzed. But the The Colombo family believed that it was Joey Gallo who was responsible for this. Joey Gallo and his new wife had been having a dinner with friends at the Copacabana nightclub in New York. They were joined at their table by Don Rickles, who had been performing that night. Comedian David Steinberg, who had been the best man at Joey Gallo’s wedding to a second wife, was there. And he suggested to them that they left the Copacabana about three o’clock in the morning. And he suggested to them that they all go down to Little Italy, go to Chinatown, and we’ll have a late dinner there. So Rick Olson and Steinberg said, it’s too late for us. You go and enjoy yourself and we’ll see you another time. Joey Gallo, his bodyguard, a Greek guy, I can’t remember his name exactly. Peter Dacopoulos. That’s it. And his wife, and Decapolis’ girlfriend and Joey Gallo’s stepdaughter. They all drove downtown. They couldn’t find anything open in Chinatown, so they drove over to Little Italy, and they went into Umberto’s Clam House.
[16:49] And it was very strange, because supposedly a gangster would never do this. Joe Colombo was sitting with his back to the door.
[16:58] Usually, your back is to the wall, and you’re facing the door. Oh, Joey Gallo was sitting with his back to the door. Yeah, I meant Joey Gallo. Yeah. Go ahead. And there was kind of a lonely guy sitting at the bar having a drink, and no one paid any attention to him. He was a mob wannabe, and he recognized Joey Gallo, and he went to a mob social club that was a few blocks away that was a hangout for Colombo gangsters. And when he came in and told them that joey gallo was there and the one of the guys there called a capo from the colombo family and told him who they saw and so forth and apparently he instructed them to go and get rid of him and so they took the mob wannabe guy and they got in two cars and they drove down to or around the block whatever it was to umberto’s clam house they went in and they immediately started shooting. And Colombo flipped over the table. I’m sorry, Joey Gallo flipped over the table and had his wife and girlfriend in the step door to get behind the table. And he and Peter were firing back at these guys.
[18:07] Peter got shot in the ass and complained about it for many months afterwards, and Joey Gallo ran out onto the street chasing them, and he got shot in the neck, and I think it hit his carotid artery, and he bled to death on the sidewalk. And the guys from the Columbo and the Columbo wannabe guy, they quickly drove up to an apartment on the Upper East Side where the Columbo capo was. And he told them to go to a safe house in Nyack, New York, where they went. And meanwhile, the mob wannabe guy who had fingered Columbo, he’s getting very nervous. He feels that his life isn’t worth too much. He’s in over his head.
[18:51] Right. So he sneaks out in the middle of the night and takes a plane to California to live with his sister. And he tries to get into the witness protection program, but they don’t believe him. They don’t believe he has enough evidence to make it worthwhile. No one knows exactly what happened to him afterwards. And the guys who supposedly killed Gallo, nothing really happened to them either. There was a huge funeral for Joey Gallo in Brooklyn. And it was like one of those old mob funerals that you see in a movie with a hundred flower cars and people lining the streets. And I think it was Joey Gallo’s mother who threw herself into the grave on top of the coffin. Oh, really? And Joey Gallo’s.
[19:38] He had two brothers, one of whom had died of cancer, and the other one wound up going into another mob family. That was part of the peace deal. I can’t remember if it was the Gambino family or the Genovese family. He went into one of those two families. I think it was Gambino family, that Albert Kidd Twist gallo, I think was his name. And I think it was the Gambino family. He just kept a low profile until he died of natural causes. I think he’s dead now. He never heard from him again, basically. Exactly.
[20:06] Interesting. That’s a heck of a story. A lot more stories like that in there, too. I bet. What was your favorite story out of that, or the one that shocked you or you learned something? Maybe something that you learned that you didn’t know or cut through some myth.
[20:20] Probably, I’m just looking at my notes here to see what really fascinated me the most. I think the evolution of the Bug and Meyer gang. This guy, Ralph Salerno, who was a fascinating guy who headed the New York Prime Strike Force, Mafia investigators He’s been dead for about I think 10 or 15 years But I spent about Two or three hours Interviewing him A long time ago Didn’t he write a book Didn’t he write a book Called The Crime Confederation Or something like that Yes he did Yeah And it’s excellent So he knew Meyer Lansky He had met Bugsy Siegel Back once In the early 1940s He knew Frank Costello He knew all of these people And it was fascinating To, to hear his stories. And he said that during the time of the Bug and Meyer gang, they were the most vicious gang in New York. And they had a complete menu for crimes that they would commit on your behalf. Burglaries, murders, throwing people out of windows, breaking arms and legs, killing by stabbing, killing by shooting, killing by knifing. And each one had a price. And he said they actually had it printed. It was like a menu and you could check off what you wanted.
[21:40] Crazy. And then he said, as they got more and more involved in prohibition, they got out of this and it evolved into Murder Incorporated, which had about 400 members, primarily Jewish and Italian gangsters. And it was run by Albert Anastasia and Lepke Bookhalter.
[22:05] And when Thomas Dewey came into power, he wanted very much to convict these guys, but, Murder Incorporated had this fascinating idea that every member of Murder Incorporated would receive a monthly retainer and then it paid a special price for committing murders. And the more ambitious the member was, the more murders he would commit. So there were a couple who were really very ambitious and did a lot of murders. And each one had a specialty. So there was this one guy named Abe Hidtwist Relis, who only killed people with an ice pick in the back of the neck. And then he would leave the body in a car, talking about getting rid of bodies, and he would burn the body and leave it in the car and let other people know who were the relatives that he had been done away with. And then there was a guy named Pittsburgh Phil, who was the most ambitious of them, who supposedly committed about 100 to 150 murders because he just loved getting money for each one that he committed.
[23:15] Then there was a guy named Louis Capone, who’s no relation to Al. He worked with a partner named Mendy Weiss, and the two of them went out and killed people together. They thought it was a fun event for them. It was like a boy’s night out. Who we’re going to kill today. Weren’t they two of them that got the electric chair? Yes, they did. And there’s a picture of them on the train up to Singh on their way to the electric chair. And they’re laughing. This is nothing. This is just another fun time for us. And yeah, I think there were four of them who finally went to the electric chair. And then one member of this was a guy named Charlie the Bud Workman, who finally got indicted for the murder of Dutch Schultz. He was the one who carried out the murder of Dutch Schultz for the mob. And he got, I think he was 30 years in prison. But according to his son…
[24:13] Who is a PGA golfer, who is well-known in PGA circles as a very good golf competitor, said that the mob took care of his family for the entire time that Workman was in prison because he never spoke about anybody else. He really observed the rules of a murder, and they appreciated him for that. So that whole episode was like a corporation murder, which is why they called it Murder, Inc., that would go out and kill people on orders only from the mafia. They only worked for the mafia. You couldn’t hire them if you weren’t a member of the mafia. And it had to go through a mafia boss for the instructions to come down to them. A soldier couldn’t tell them what to do. Even a capo couldn’t tell them. It had to go up to a boss, the boss had to approve it, and then assign someone to do it. And they all worked out of a candy store in Brooklyn called Midnight Roses because it was open 24 hours a day. And the phone would ring there from giving whoever it was instructions about who was to be killed, where they were to be killed, how they were to do it, and so forth and so on.
[25:27] So what was also interesting is even though Bugsy Siegel had left the Bug and Meyer gang, he still loved participating in murder. He liked killing people. And his partner in these murders was a guy named Frankie Carbo, who became a big deal in boxing. He controlled most of the boxing in America up until at the time of Sonny Liston. And his partner in this was a man named Blinky Palermo.
[25:59] And according to Ralph Natale, who for a while had been the boss of the Philadelphia crime family, it was Frankie Carbo who was sent by the mob to kill Bugsy Siegel. Because if he was caught or Bugsy Siegel saw him around, he wouldn’t suspect that he was his killer because they were friends and they had operated as partners together. So this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It’s your friend who comes closest to you and then arranges you to be assassinated. So I found that whole story just fascinating. Interesting. I’ll tell you what. And there’s those and a whole lot more stories in this, isn’t there, Jeff? Yes, there are. I think that the book covers pretty much the mob history, beginning with the founding of the five families, going all the way up through Sammy the Bulgurvano’s testimony against John Gotti and the commission trial, where they decapitated the heads of the five families. Not literally, folks. Not literally. Not literally. We didn’t literally decapitate. Rudy Giuliano, he tried to. He tried to. He tried to. Metaphorically, he decapitated the heads of the five families. Exactly.
[27:15] You know, what was interesting, though, is in the 1930s, you had Thomas Dewey. In the 1960s, you had Robert Kennedy, who went after the mob. And then later on, you had Rudy Giuliani going after the mob. And the mob always managed to reorganize itself and figure out a new way of existing. They were very opportunistic and they always managed to find a way to keep going, even if it was very low key, which is what it is now, where they operate in the shadows and they don’t have any John Gottis or Al Capone’s out there getting a lot of attention for themselves. They’re still out there doing things. Yeah. Yeah. They finally learned something about that getting publicity. And most recently, they put together a whole scheme, and this goes way back, of cheating people. Big whales, I call them whales, of rich men that like to gamble and brush up against kind of the dark side and cheat them at cards. They’ve been doing that for years. They just do it under goes to clear black to the Friars Club scam in Los Angeles where Ronnie Roselli and some others had a spotter, would see who had what cards in what’s hands, then would tell another player. And so now there’s just more electronic, but the same game just upgraded to electronics.
[28:30] That’s right. What someone I spoke to interviewed said, he said they’re very involved in electronic gambling poker machines and that kind of thing. And a lot of offshore gambling and offshore money laundering. And to some extent, even drug dealing now. And they’re still very involved in New York in the construction business. Oh, really? Yeah. Union business. They’re still in it, huh? And I know in Kansas City, there’s a couple of examples where they put money into a buy here, pay here car dealership into a title loan place because there’s a huge rate of interest on those things. And there’s a lot of scams that go down out of those places, especially the old crap cars and put them together and sell them to poor people for they’ve got $500 in the car and they sell it to them for $2,000. They charge them a 25% interest and then go repo it when the car breaks down, turn around and patch it up and sell it again. So there’s always schemes going on out there to mob will put their money into. Oh, it’s incredible. I knew of one scheme where they would They would sell trucks to people and give them a special route. And so on that route, they could make enough money to pay off the loan on the truck. But then they would take away the route from them. They couldn’t pay off the truck. So they would repossess the truck and sell it to someone else and do it all over again.
[29:50] Oh, I know. They got to tell you that. And Joey Messino and the Bananos, they organized the tow main wagons, the lunch truck, the snack wagons. Right, exactly. Organize them. And then they start extorting money, formed an association. And then to get to good spots, then you had to kick money to them. And just to be part of the organization, that was kicking money to them. There’s always something. They always manage to find a place where they can make money. And it’s like whack-a-mole. You can stop them here, you can stop them there, and then they pop up in three other places.
[30:24] Really all right jeffrey susman i’m so happy to talk to you again i haven’t talked to you for a while and i hope everything else is everything’s going okay for you in new york city yep i’m working on a new book uh what are you working on now oh my god you are so prolific i look on your amazon page just when i was getting ready to do this trying to think of some of those other titles Oh, my God. I’m working on a book about the Garment Center. Ah, interesting. Only because my family was involved in that business, and they had to deal with the mob in various ways, with trucking companies, unions, and so forth. And since I knew that, and I had a lot of information, a lot of contacts, I thought I would tackle that next. I remember when I had my marketing PR business back in the 1970s.
[31:16] I had a client who was in the fitness business, and I had a cousin of my mother’s who was a very famous dress designer at the time, and he had a big showroom on 7th Avenue, which is in the garment center. I went to see him because I wanted to see if I could get a deal for my client to manufacture exercise clothes and brand it with her name. I made a date to have lunch with this cousin of mine, and he said, come up to my showroom. we’ll meet for lunch, And so I got to the showroom, and I called out his name when I walked in. It was empty. And this guy comes running out of the back, and he just has a shirt on, and he has a shoulder holster, .38 caliber gun in it. And he says to me, who the F are you? I said, I’m so-and-so’s cousin. I’m here to have lunch with him. He disappeared into the back. And a couple of minutes later my mother’s cousin comes out and i said who was that what was that about he says i don’t want to talk about it now i’ll tell you all for lunch so we go down to a restaurant around the corner and i asked him again and he says he said he couldn’t have his dresses delivered to any department store unless he made a deal with yeah i forgot if it was the gambinos or the lucasies that he had to take this guy on as a partner otherwise the trucks wouldn’t deliver his garments. And there was nothing he could do about it. It was either that or go out of business.
[32:45] I’ll tell you what, they’re voracious. They’re greedy and voracious and don’t care. Just give me those, show me the money. That’s all it is. It’s all about money and any way to get it. And then there’s always a threat of murder behind it. If you don’t cooperate, think of the worst thing that can happen to you. And that’s what’ll happen. Yeah. I’ve had guys over the years tell I’m like, oh, you ought to throw in with one of those ex-mobsters that’s doing podcasts and try to do something with them. I say, I ain’t doing business with them. They play by their rules. I play by society’s rules. And I don’t have time to mess with that. Yeah. And that was a smart thing to do. Because also, when I had this fitness client, I met someone who was… I didn’t know what was connected to the mob, but a mutual friend, this guy said that he wanted to set up fitness centers all around the country for my clients. So I mentioned this to a mutual friend and he said, whatever you don’t go into business with this guy, I said, regret it for the rest of your life. So I advised my client not to do it.
[33:49] Yeah. Cause initially before we knew that it sounded like a great opportunity. And then when you investigate, it’s not such a great opportunity. Yeah, really. Speaking of that, we tell stories for hours. I just heard a story. We had a relocated mobster, a guy that testified against Gigante, came here to Kansas City. And he was, of course, under witness protection and he’s got an assumed name. And he befriends a guy that has a fitness center. He has a franchise of Gold’s Gym or something. And he has a fitness center. And he talks this guy into taking him on, investing a little money in it, taking him on as his partner. Within the next couple of years, this mobster, he’s got two of his kids working there and neither one of them are really doing anything, but they’re drawing a salary and the money’s trickling out. And the guy, the local guy, he just walks away from it because this guy’s planned by the mob’s rules. So he just ended up walking away from it, did something else. So it’s do not go into business with these guys. No, never. Never.
[34:48] Jeffrey Suspett, it’s a pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be with you again, Gary. It’s always a pleasure. Thank you very much.