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Retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit Detective Gary Jenkins sits down with returning guest Scott Deitch for a detailed exploration of one of the more understated yet influential figures in organized crime—Jerry Catena.
Scott Deitch, known for his deep research and engaging storytelling, brings insight from his books Cigar City Mafia, Garden State Gangland, and his upcoming release Jersey Boss. The conversation moves from Tampa’s mob history to the inner workings of the Genovese crime family, with a focus on Catena’s calculated rise through the ranks.
🔍 Episode Highlights
Scott Deitch’s Mafia Journey Deitch outlines how he became one of the more respected voices in mafia history, driven by a fascination with overlooked mob figures and untold regional stories.
Who Was Jerry Catena? A key but often underreported power broker, Catena rose during Prohibition-era influences and mentorship, eventually becoming a major figure within the Genovese hierarchy.
Mob Influence in New Jersey & Tampa. The discussion connects Catena’s operations to broader organized crime networks stretching from Florida to the Northeast.
Hollywood vs Reality. A look at how The Sopranos drew inspiration from real mob figures, including possible parallels to Catena and New Jersey crime families.
Las Vegas & Gambling Operations. Catena’s involvement in early Las Vegas casino ventures reveals the mob’s hybrid model of legitimate business and illicit skimming operations.
The Businessman Mobster. Unlike many of his contemporaries, Catena relied more on relationships and financial acumen than violence, aligning himself with figures like Frank Costello and Longy Zwillman.
A Different Ending
Catena’s relatively peaceful retirement contrasts sharply with the violent ends typical of organized crime figures.
Personal Side of a Mob Figure
Stories of Catena’s love for golf and generous personality add nuance to an otherwise complex criminal life.
Tampa Mafia Tours Deitch shares details about his immersive mafia history tours in Tampa, offering listeners a chance to experience this world firsthand.
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Transcript
[0:00] Hey, welcome all you guys out there. It’s good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. I have one of my old friends here, one of my oldest friends in the podcast, Mafia podcast business. I interviewed Scott a long time ago. I went down to Tampa and went on his mob tour in Tampa. And we had a cigar before we went on the tour, and he’s got several really great mob books. So it’s Scott Deitch. It’s really great to have you back on the show, Scott. Yeah, it’s great to be back, Gary. And you missed the most important part of the Tampa trip was we made the bet on the Super Bowl. Oh, yeah. I had to send you something, didn’t I? You had to send me some Kansas City barbecue. Yeah, I had to send you some barbecue. I forgot all about that. Yeah. I’m like a Las Vegas gambler. I’m always talking about how much I won. I never come back and tell you how much I lost. Never notice that. Gamblers never talk about how much they lost.
[0:59] So anyhow, Scott, you’ve got several mob books. You’ve been on the show before. Tell us a little bit about your background and the mob books that you have. I know you’ve got another one on the New Jersey mob. You’ve got one on the Purple Gang and a couple other things. You’ve got a Tampa book. So tell us about that and the titles of them. And guys, I’ll have the links to these books in the show notes. Yeah, so my first book came out in 2004, over 20 years ago. That was Cigar City Mafia, History of the Mafia in Tampa. I’ve written a book on Santo Traficante called The Silent Don. He was the last longtime boss of Tampa involved in CIA mafia plots and figures into some of the Kennedy assassination theories.
[1:44] Garden State Gangland, like you mentioned, which is a first overall overarching
[1:48] history of the mafia in New Jersey. I did Hitman, which is a look at the East Harlem Purple Gang. And then my upcoming one, among others, which is Jersey Boss, and that’ll be out in May of 2026.
[2:04] Jersey Boss, the rise of Mafia power, Jerry Catena. Now, I’m going to get this question. Let’s talk about The Sopranos first. Let’s get that out of the way. Does this have anything to do with Sopranos? Was Tony Soprano based on this guy or somebody else that was connected to this guy, the Cavalcante family? So funny, because I was asked that a few years ago for the Star Ledger, the Jersey paper I grew up with. And there’s one of the guys that a lot of people point to as part of the inspiration for Tony Soprano was Tony Boy Boyardo, who was the son of Richie the Boot Boyardo. And Tony Boy was close with Jerry Catina. And in fact, Jerry Cattino was Tony’s, the best man at Tony Boy’s wedding. So Jerry Cattino himself is not really necessarily represented in the fictional universe of The Sopranos, but certainly people around there and this Tony Boy connection with some of the aspects of Tony Soprano are part of that. And he came up under Richie the Boot, Beardo. And Richie the Boot, he was immensely successful, financially successful. And Jerry Cattino was too. He must have learned well at reaching the boots, the foot at his knee.
[3:17] Yeah. And even more so than Richie the Buddha was Longy’s Willman, Abner Longy’s Willman, who was really another major mentor to Jerry Catena. And really see as Jerry falls under the tutelage of Longy’s Willman during the prohibition era, he starts becoming more of a racketeer than a gangster. And that’s under Longy sees the value of legitimate businesses and investing. And in fact, I talk about it in the book, a lot of people don’t really know much about the New Jersey mob’s investments in Las Vegas. And Catena and Longy Zwellman started investing in Vegas in the late 40s. So, yeah, I think Catena was fortunate to have, or I say fortunate for him in his underworld career, to have mentors like Boyardo and especially Zwillman who steered him out of the purely criminal and showed him the value of the legitimate side of business.
[4:14] The legitimate side of business with mafia rules. Absolutely. Yeah. I had somebody ask me, well, why don’t you go into business and do a podcast with one of these mobsters? I said, I’m not going to do business with a mobster. They got their own set of rules, and I don’t understand those rules.
[4:31] I know the regular business rules, but I don’t understand those mafia rules. Jerry was, I see in some of my old notes here from way back, that he was close to Frank Costello, and that’s one of the ways that he got into gambling, and he was part of the Genovese family. So talk a little bit about those early days of Jerry Catena.
[4:53] Yeah, so he’s born in Newark in Down Neck or the Ironbound neighborhood. Starts, I’d say, starts coming under law enforcement, screwing. He gets in trouble with the law around the prohibition era. He starts off as a truck driver, works his way up. He’s involved in illegal gambling at that time, then starts to get involved in the vending machine business. But he ends up becoming associated with members of the Genovese crime family. And along the way becomes very close friends with Frank Costello. After he’s made, oh my God, I’m drawing a blank, 46, he gets put under Willie Moretti’s crew. So he’s really becomes a core part of the New Jersey faction of the Genovese crime family. Interesting.
[5:41] With that, I have to assume that he looked after their gambling interests down there as much as anything. Was that his initial focus, or was he more into extortion? No, gambling was definitely one of the—yeah, it was actually funny you mentioned hijacking. One of his earliest arrests was for hijacking trucks of cigarettes in the 1920s. Then he moves into illegal gambling.
[6:07] He’s involved in bootlegging during Prohibition, but afterwards into illegal gambling. The other thing, he becomes very involved in the unions around the Port Elizabeth and the Newark Port area. And the interesting thing about Catena is even though he becomes associated with guys like Frank Costello and obviously Vito Genovese in the New York faction, he’s very much a New Jersey-based crime figure. So most of his operations are in New Jersey. Fort Lee, New Jersey at the time becomes a real hotbed of gambling. They have these nightclubs, places like Dukes. Jerry Coutinho becomes involved with that. Yeah, I would say it’s pretty accurate to say that illegal gambling was certainly one of kind of the primary revenue sources for him.
[6:51] Yeah, and that’s more white collar crime. Now, he’s going to move on to going into legitimate business with the great A&P story, which is a great story. Whenever you’re ready, we’ve got to talk about that. Now, you mentioned about having the points in the casinos out there. We know that when Costello was shot, they pulled a piece of paper out of his, he had a piece of paper in his pocket that indicated what the take was on a particular day at the start. So was that, how did these guys from New York get into Las Vegas so early?
[7:25] Longy’s woman starts going over to Vegas and probably, I think the connection there is Longy’s woman was close with Meyer Lansky. So Meyer Lansky, obviously out there with Bugsy Siegel, when they take over the Flamingo, the Billy Wilkerson deal, all that, then obviously Bugsy Siegel was killed. Meyer Lansky really gets his kind of foothold in at that time. Longy’s woman comes soon thereafter. after. And by the late 40s, early 50s, Jerry Catena’s there, involved in skim operations. And predominantly in the late 50s, after it opens, is the Fremont Hotel in downtown, which is still there on Fremont Street. It becomes really one of their major cash cows for Jerry Catena and his operations. And I’ll take a little segue here, because I think one of the really, interesting and important things about jerry Catena which differentiates him from a lot of the other mafia guys was he was very ingrained and embedded with jewish organized crime figures like long east women like abe green guys like that that are out of newark so his operations in vegas parallel a lot of the involvement of jewish gangsters in vegas as well so Catena really, takes a little bit of a different path than a lot of the traditional Mafio out of New York and New Jersey at that time.
[8:50] What I find interesting, because like the Midwest mobs, they got into Vegas by guaranteeing getting these teamsters loans for non-Italians, front men, if you will, to build the casinos or make the existing casino bigger. But these early New York guys, I talked to an expert on that early development of Las Vegas. They said those farmers and ranchers in Las Vegas, they didn’t know how to run casinos. but the mob guys who’d had carpet joints, Frank Costello and Mayor Lansky and people like that, they knew how to run a casino. So those Jewish gamblers out of Cleveland, all those guys then moved out to help the farmers and ranchers that, that pull, had the strings of political power at the time and wanted to make money off the gambling and showed them how to run the casinos. Is that kind of how, would that be how they got in out there? Cause they weren’t guaranteeing teamsters loan at that point.
[9:45] No. So yeah, you’re right about that too. And they’re bringing out that expertise of running these gambling operations in New York, New Jersey at that time. And it’s really the fortuitous timing as post-World War II, the tourism boom, Vegas starts booming, you get the entertainment, it all becomes this ecosystem that’s growing, keeps growing. And like you mentioned, later on when the Midwest guys come in, that’s when the Teamster Central Pension Fund, and they’re utilizing that. But so it’s interesting to see all the different ways that the mafia guys were moving in. There’s some other guys moving with the entertainment that comes over into Vegas as well. Yeah. Interesting.
[10:22] So how did he, he didn’t just sit back and bring the money in. How active was he on the streets? Was he a street guy? If something needed to be done, would he go out and do it? Or did he hire somebody to do it? I guess would be my question. After Willie Moretti is killed, Jerry Catena takes over his crew.
[10:44] That’s when he starts to become noticed not only in terms of respect and stature within the mafia, but law enforcement. He’s called in front of the Kefauver Commission in 1950. He’s called in front of the McClellan Commission in 59 again. And so as his star starts to rise in the 1950s, his friendship with Frank Costello, his relationship with Vito Genovese starts to grow. And in 1957, after Frank Costello is shot at, the famous shooting, The Majestic on the Upper West Side, that Vito Genovese becomes boss. He appoints Jerry Catena as underboss. And there’s a quote somewhere. I forget who was on a wiretap. And Genovese is there. I kind of wonder why Jerry was made underboss. And Genovese says something to the effect of this guy controls Las Vegas, meaning he’s a big earner. So he’s bringing in a lot of money to the family at that time. That’s when Coutinho’s stature really cements itself. Really? And I believe he was at Appalachian with Vito Genovese, too. Yeah, they’re in the same club. Which tells you right now his position in power.
[11:54] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, he stopped in the car. And I believe Bufalino was in the car as well with the same car. Oh, really? So he was a nationally known guy. By 1957, he was known all over the East Coast, for sure. And then in Las Vegas, too. So he was a mover and a shaker that kind of kept his head down, too. He’s not like Costello Genovese. He’s not exactly a household name. No. A lot of people don’t really know that name exactly. Yeah, and that’s why I wanted to do a book on him, because he’s a fascinating character, very influential, but not at the top 10 or 20 list of most mobsters. Generally, people know pop culture, and even in the mob world, he’s not as well-documented or as well-known. He must not have gone into New York and partied a lot.
[12:43] He’s no John Gotti, was he? No, he did like nice restaurants in New York, but he stayed a little bit more under the radar, that’s for sure. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. So tell us a little more about him. We’re up to 1957 and he’s got interest in the casinos. He’s been to Appalachian. He has solidified his position.
[13:07] And we got that great A&P store extortion. What does he get into after that? There’s something else about the North American Chemical Company and detergent company that he’s muscled in on. So he becomes acting boss of the Genovese family after Vito goes to prison. That’s the argument I put forth in the book. And there’s a lot of evidence supporting that from wiretaps and stuff. He’s also getting much more involved in a lot of bigger legitimate businesses, gaming being one. But he starts investing in companies. One of these is this North American chemical company that you refer to. And they make this liquid detergent that is pretty caustic and not a lot of stores won’t carry it. So he’s trying to work with unions to pressure some of the major stores like A&P to carry this product.
[13:59] Even though he’s the acting boss and he has a lot of close confidants and probably the closest Tommy Ebbely in terms of stature, although they don’t always get along. Jerry Catena really relies on his younger brother, Gene Catena. And he puts Gene in charge of this A&P thing. And rather than doing it the quiet way that Jerry likes it, Gene actually starts recruiting people to bomb A&P stores and actually results in the murder of a couple A&P managers of the stores that were refusing to stock this. And from a couple sources I spoke to, Jerry was pretty incensed about this and shooed his brother out pretty hard because this is out of character for kind of the way he was running things.
[14:42] And then Gene dies in 1967 and the AP thing fizzles out after there. But I think it’s, yeah, because if you look at like the history of how Jerry does business, it’s very much an outlier in terms of just not only the outright
[14:56] violence, but violence against people that aren’t involved in organized crime or the mob. What other business interests did he have over these years? I think probably one of the biggest that he gets into is Bally Gaming. And the name Bally, everyone knows the name Bally. It’s synonymous with gaming. They had their hands in fitness centers. They own Six Fleck and Bally’s still a big name, even though the Bally company now is basically Bally in name only, but let’s rewind back to the early sixties. Lee gaming becomes this really big manufacturer out of Chicago. It’s a subsidiary of Lion Manufacturing. And the owner of Lion Manufacturing dies suddenly from a heart attack.
[15:36] And the company goes into a trust, a bank trust. But there’s a salesman in their Chicago office named Bill O’Donnell. And he sees the value in the Bally name. So he puts together an investment consortium to buy Bally. And he goes to his biggest distributor, which is a company called Runyon. And Runyon’s based out of Newark. And the three primary owners of Runyon are Barney Sugarman, Abe Green, who grew up one of Longy’s Women’s top men, and Jerry Catena. And Jerry was very involved in the day-to-day business of Runyon. So Jerry puts together an even bigger pool of investors, and they basically buy Bally. And this coincides with the introduction of an electronic version of a slot machine that Bally was manufacturing. Oh, really? So Bally really starts to take off. And the interesting thing about this, again, there’s not one other mafia guy in this investment group. Nobody from the Genovese family, no Italians. It’s a bunch of old Jewish gangsters and other affiliates that Jerry puts together for this investment. And one of the interesting things is as Bally becomes bigger in the 1960s, Jerry just starts making more and more money. You can see on wiretaps that he doesn’t really want to be boss anymore.
[17:01] He’s really into golf. He just wants to not be boss anymore. But anyway, he’s involved in Bally. He sells his shares in the mid-60s because Bally goes public. But there’s an enormous amount of information showing that he basically sold his shares. But Abe Green and some others bought additional shares that were really Jerry. So he stole it as his hands in Bally.
[17:27] Valley. Interesting. He’s one of those guys. I met this wet guy once. He had an auto theft ring. And I said, dude, if you would take your skills, your organizational building, your brains and put it into a regular business, you’d do all right. So Jerry’s one of those guys, isn’t he? Yeah, for sure. If he put all his enthusiasm and expertise and organizational
[17:48] abilities into regular business, then he’d do okay anyhow. And one other thing during this time too, he still stills his illegal operations going he still has the skim and he was getting forty two thousand dollars a month in the early 60s out of the skin for himself person that’s a lot of money and that’s not counting all the other stuff and one of the other interesting things that i found out through researching this is he did not take kick nobody had to kick money up to him he was self-sufficient he let everyone keep their own stuff so he unless he was involved in it he never took an envelope from his other ones, because he didn’t really need to. He had so much of his own stuff going on. So it’s another kind of interesting little detail. Yeah, he was a much-beloved boss. He probably saved himself a lot of trouble by not getting greedy. Yeah, and it’s funny, because he was very aloof, like I said. He didn’t necessarily want to be boss. And you hear on wiretaps, like.
[18:46] Shift to carload and people timey ebbly just complaining about him they’re like this guy’s really aloof he’s not in touch you can’t get to see him this but yet nobody tries to make a move against him because i think even though he probably wasn’t the most ideal boss in their eyes in terms of being hands-on they realize they he’s doing okay he was very well respected and well liked and i think that went a long way huh interesting that which which makes me wonder what uh how did And where was Vincent Gigante during these years as he’s slowly but surely moving up? He must be eventually getting come up in right behind, under Catena. Yeah, so Gigante’s in New York at that time. Tommy Eboli’s, like the head, oversees a lot of the New York operations. You have Benny Squint Lombardo, who’s powerhouse behind the scenes. And then Genovese dies in 69.
[19:44] Catena takes over for a very brief period but he actually goes to prison in 1970 and not from being convicted of any crime he gets sentenced to prison for contempt because he gets brought before the New Jersey State Commission of Investigation and he refuses to testify, and they jail him for contempt for almost five years Five years? Wow Yeah, in fact it’s one of the longest sentences ever imposed on someone for contempt and he’s ultimately freed by the Supreme Court You can look up, there’s a Supreme Court decision. It’s Catena versus something. I have it in the book. But yeah, so when Catena goes to prison, then the Genovese leadership continues moving forward. Emily’s killed in 72, and then Gigantes starts showing up in the picture by then.
[20:29] Yeah, and he’ll move on up. So how did Jerry then, he’s done five years in the pen. Man, now what happens after he comes back out? Is he assuming he’s placed or does he start easing himself out? Use that as an excuse to get on out. Exactly. You nailed it on the head. Yeah, within less than a year, he sells his home in New Jersey. He already owns a place in Boca Raton. So he goes to Boca and really starts fading back playing golf, but he still keeps his, I don’t want to say consigliere because he’s not considered the official consigliere at that point, but he’s still very involved and people have want, want to come for advice or guidance. They’re meeting with Jerry. He’s seen meeting with like Sam The Plumber, the Calvo Conte, and these other guys. And one kind of weird thing, in 1983, there’s a series of both federal and New Jersey State police, the org charts that you see. And Catena’s considered a consigliere at that point, but he’s probably at that point semi-retired. And by the mid 80s, he’s completely retired and steps back from business.
[21:43] Interesting. And he lives basically one of the few bosses that just retires on his own accord. Yeah. He didn’t retire into the penitentiary. He had never really come out until he couldn’t really do anything when he came back out. A lot of them ended up like that. Either that or dead some way, one way or the other. And boy, he came up through the growth, the huge growth of the mob up 50s into the 70s in the New York families especially. They really exerted a lot of power and grew during those years. So he saw it all, didn’t he? Yeah, he was born in 1902. So, you know, by the time he’s a teenager in his 20s, Prohibition starts. So he’s right there.
[22:28] You know, when he turns 18, Prohibition starts. He’s right there through his adult life. And he lives a long life. He dies in 2000 at 98 years old in Punta Gorda, Florida.
[22:39] And pretty much his reign in his life is the 20th century. He pretty much bookends the 20th century. So you’re right. When he hits his prime, his 40s, 50s, that’s when the mafia is hitting their prime. They hit their prime with the political contacts and the concrete club and all the construction in Manhattan. They’re all making so much money. You mentioned political context. That’s another thing, especially in the 50s and 60s, is Catena is very politically astute. And the Genevieve’s family themselves, they’re tied in with the mayor of Newark, the police chief. They have a state assembly or state representatives on their payroll. He’s on wiretap or his associates talking about these politicians they have in their pockets. So he certainly played the political game as well. In your research, did you run across anything that kind of got his take on the purported meeting in, I believe, in Philadelphia between Chicago and New York or East Coast guys where they agreed to divide up Las Vegas for Chicago and Atlantic City for the East Coast?
[23:47] No, because by the time that he got out, Atlantic City just started. He was fading away. But here’s an interesting thing, though. His name really starts popping back up in the papers around 1977 when Atlantic City legalizes gambling. The reason for that is because Bally makes a bid to be one of the early casinos. And there’s a whole bunch of hearings that Catena’s name has brought up in relation to his previous ownership of Bally. And what’s interesting is that up until the mid nineties. And again, Catena is long retired. He’s in his mid nineties. Every time Bali reapplies for their casino license, Atlantic city, there is a line in there. And I pulled it from the gaming control board that says Bali is not allowed to give any payments to any companies owned by Jerry Catena or blah, blah, blah. So even though he’s long retired, he’s towards the end of his life. They’re still wanting to keep Jerry Catena out of Bali gaming.
[24:46] I have a long memory there in New Jersey. Yeah. When they were getting ready to do the casino thing, we happened to have a, what we called a LEIU, Law Enforcement Intelligence Units, Bi-Zone Conference. And what that meant was the Eastern Zone and Central Zone met. They met in Kansas City and a whole lot of New Jersey state troopers and a couple of guys from the, whatever the county is there, Atlantic City, from the prosecutor’s office. And a couple other intelligence people, they were like telling us all those precautions that they were taking trying to keep the mob out. They were really working like hell to keep the mob out. And they really never exactly got it done. And I remember talking about that even the mob will get an interest in… Transportation companies that bring people from New York. Yeah.
[25:38] The gambling junkets were a big business. And to that point down here in Tampa, the Tampa guys had junkets out to Vegas. Same thing as they weren’t involved in Vegas, but they control these businesses and were bringing gamblers out there and taking a little off the top. Yeah, we had a junket out of Kansas City, and that was the guy that ran the junket. That was the guy that was bringing the skim back from the Tropicana. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. So that was the cover they used. he, they called him the singer. He had a reason to go back and forth to Las Vegas. And they talked about that, how nobody paid any attention to him because he already had a reason to go back and forth. Oh yeah, that makes sense. That’s smart. As you guys, they think about it, but I have to think about everything because they got a big brother breathing down their neck.
[26:24] Absolutely. Scott, you got any other stories that you want to tell guys about it that are in the book and Tyson to go get that book? Yeah. So just a couple other random things that I found really interesting.
[26:36] Jerry Catena’s name was in the newspaper a lot in the 1950s, but not for any kind of mob stuff. He was an avid amateur golfer, and he actually golfed in a lot of prestigious tournaments around New Jersey and then later in Florida. And then a couple of people I spoke to, one guy remembers being a caddy for him and saying how Jerry was a very good tipper or tip him with 20, 50 bucks back then. That was huge. A lot. Yeah. But he spent about as much time in the golf course as he did doing mod business. He was all the way up in, you know, up until his eighties, he was a avid golfer, which I thought that was interesting thing.
[27:13] Yeah. The other thing, too, is really just how he shows up in these little different pockets of mob history a little bit behind the scenes. And I think the other really interesting thing about Jerry Catena is he was a very soft-spoken, everyone I talked to, people that knew him, family, his old attorney, never raised his voice, never lost his temper, very low-key, very… And it was funny, he’s a Neapolitan heritage, which a lot of the Genovese guys were. But if you look at pictures of him, he looks Irish because he had really light hair and blue eyes. So he looked like a stereotypical Irish priest in some photos of him. But yeah, he definitely was cut from a different cloth, I would say,
[27:57] of most of those mob guys, for sure. Certainly, I think if you were to pick a family for him to be in would be the Genovese family, because they always seem to have more of those racketeers rather than gangsters, whether it was Frank Costello or Luciano or whatever. Yeah, interesting. No Joey Gallows in there. No, yeah, no.
[28:19] Like the Columbos. All right, Scott DeGay, it’s really been great having you on. It’s an interesting book, and I’ll have links to all your books down in the show notes, guys. You might want to get that Garden State Gangland. Garden State Gangland, yep. Garden State Gangland to give you the bigger picture about New Jersey boffy stuff, as well as more of a narrow view of it with the Jerry Catina book. So I really appreciate you coming on the show. Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention, and Scott and I talked about this when we first got on, is he does a mob tour of Tampa all winter long. So you guys from up north that go down to Tampa or go to Florida over the winter, you need to go down there and take that tour. I actually have an example of the tour on my YouTube page. You have to go up there and maybe search on my YouTube channel for Tampa tour. And I think you can find it so you can see what you’re getting into. Yeah. Yeah. Tampa Mafia tours. We do them generally September to end of April. In fact, we’re recording this towards the end of April when we have our final tours. Nobody wants to be walking around outside in August. I can testify. It’s a great tour. It was a lot of fun. Thank you. Appreciate it. It’s a good thing to do in the winter too. Yeah. For when you’re up north. All right, Scott, thanks so much. Thanks again, Gary. Always a pleasure being on.