Gun Smuggling, Castro, and the Pittsburgh Mafia

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In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins sits down with journalist and author Rich Gazarik to explore a little-known corner of mob history—one that ties the Pittsburgh Mafia to Fidel Castro, stolen guns, and even the Kennedy assassination.

Rich’s latest book, Gun Smuggling, Castro, and the Pittsburgh Mafia, shines a spotlight on Sam Mannarino, a Pittsburgh mob captain under boss John LaRocca, who hatched a wild plan in the early 1960s: supply Fidel Castro with hundreds of stolen weapons in hopes of carving out a piece of Cuba’s casino action. The scheme included an audacious plot to rip off 300 rifles from a National Guard armory in Ohio—an operation that quickly unraveled into chaos.

From there, the conversation broadens into the Pittsburgh mob’s stranglehold on its city, including political corruption, bribery, and intimidation that reached into the mayor’s office and the police department. Rich recounts how Mannarino and his crew maintained a façade of respectability while ruling through violence and fear, leaving a lasting mark on Pittsburgh’s civic life.

Drawing on decades of investigative journalism and declassified JFK assassination files, Rich also connects the dots between the Pittsburgh Mafia and broader mob influence in the 1960s. We discuss how figures like Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante emerged in congressional investigations, feeding speculation that the Mafia’s reach extended into Dallas on November 22, 1963.

This episode uncovers a forgotten piece of organized crime history where local corruption, mob ambition, and Cold War politics collided. If you want to understand how Pittsburgh’s underworld tied into national events, you won’t want to miss this deep dive with Rich Gazarik. And get his book Gun Smuggling, Castro, and the Pittsburgh Mafia here.

Subscribe to Gangland Wire wherever you get your podcasts, and join us each week as we uncover the stories buried beneath the headlines—and the bodies.

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[0:00] Well, hey, all you wiretappers out there, this is Gary Jenkins,

[0:02] retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective. I’m here in the studio of Gangland Wire, and I have a story that is kind of topical right now because there’s a movie being made about November 1963. And this isn’t exactly about Kennedy assassination, but it’s all around the Kennedy assassination. And it’s about mob guys having connections down in Cuba and with Castro and out of Pittsburgh of all places. Now, go figure that. You know, I always think of Tropicante down in Tampa, and you’ve got Marcello down in New Orleans. You’ve got Ardo up in Chicago, and you always think of them, Giancana, having those connections. Well, there was a Pittsburgh guy named Sam Mannarino who had extensive connections down in Cuba. So welcome, Rich Gazarek.

[0:51] Thank you, Gary. Appreciate it. Good to have you. Rich, tell the guys the name of your book. I don’t have to. I’d have to lean over here and read it. It’s a little bit long. So tell the guys the name of your book and a little bit about what it’s about. It’s called Gun Smuggling, Castro, and the Pittsburgh Mafia. And it was a faction of the Pittsburgh Mafia.

[1:11] John LaRocco was the godfather of the Pittsburgh Mom. Sam Mannarino was one of his captains. And Mannarino and his brother Kelly had a casino in Cuba, San Suu Kyi, outside of Havana. And they didn’t do very well with it and they eventually sold it. And at the time, Fulgincia Batista was getting a little bit greedy and he was on the outs with some of the mobsters because he wanted a bigger cut. And Sam Mannarino was wondering, what if I helped Castro in his revolution? Do you think he would.

[1:51] Benefit? And do you think he would be gracious and maybe reward me with some influence in the gambling industry? And he had a longtime gambler friend who was managing by the name of Norman Rothman. And Rothman said, hey, I think we should go with Castro. Let’s put our chips on Castro. But Sam wasn’t a very right guy. And what he didn’t realize is that Fidel Castro hated the mob as much as he hated Fulgencio Batista, and there was no chance.

[2:21] But nevertheless, he wanted to try to ingratiate himself with him. So he came up with this harebrained scheme to provide Castro with guns. Mannarino went around looking for a crew to steal some weapons, so they centered on a National Guard armory in Canton, Ohio. And one night after the armory closed through the day, Somebody simply walked in, opened the door, and walked out with over 300 guns. No force break-in, no evidence of any kind of destruction. They simply must have had a key or an inside man. Put them in a van, drove off, never saw them again. They brought the guns to Kensington, Pennsylvania, which is a mob town just north of Pittsburgh. And they stored in Sam Mannarino’s son-in-law’s beer distributor.

[3:19] And then they drove, now I’ll explain to you a little geography here. I was raised in that area and I was 10 years old when this happened, but I wasn’t far from New Kensington. The Allegheny River separates Allegheny County from Westmoreland County. So I lived on the Allegheny County side and I spent my misspent youth in New Kensington in pool halls and gowls. Half-hour’s costs. So let me ask you a question a little bit about this now. John LaRocca, he was like the godfather of this entire area, really, even down in West Virginia. He was into eastern Ohio, all of western Pennsylvania, and northern West Virginia. Yeah, but he was not involved. I just want to make it clear. He was not involved in this. This was one of Sam’s, one of his many harebrained schemes, and he was on his own. Sam and Kelly Montarino, they ran this New Kensington area, which I hear you describe was a little bit like East St. Louis or Kansas. You got the main big city, but then you got the seedy side of town. That’s what I hear you describe, like Cicero to Chicago. Right, exactly. And it was big. I mean, New Kensington in its heyday had gambling casinos throughout the town, houses of prostitution. But one of the things that was interesting was It’s.

[4:42] Alcoa was headquartered in New Kensington for a number of decades now. Yeah. And as long as Alcoa prospered, the mafia prospered. They made a ton of money because they had bookies on the shop floor at Alcoa every day up until noon collecting bets. So they were both intertwined a lot. And that’s part of the theme of the book is that the interconnection between the mafia and Alcoa. Because when Alcoa eventually left in the early 70s, the mob died. It just stopped, became the town. The FBI wasn’t even that interested in it anymore. And they had spent a lot of time investigating the Manorinos. So they get this group together and they steal the guns. And then they brought them over across the river, Allegheny River, into Allegheny County. And it’s funny because I lived close when I was a boy. It was 10. I lived close to that airport. I remember reading the papers. It was big news to get this thing to come in. And they make all these arrests, all set for San Mannarino. They got all these people. In the woods was the state police, customs, and border patrol agents.

[5:56] They were waiting for the guns to come. So the guns come. They’re loaded on the plane. And just as they’re about to move in on them, the plane takes off.

[6:06] Now, it was overweight. didn’t have a full tank of gas. So what they did was the pilot decided he was going to scoot down to Morgantown, West Virginia to refuel.

[6:17] Border Patrol called the West Virginia State Police and they were waiting for the plane. And then the Border Patrol commandeered the plane and flew down and helped make the arrest. So everybody thought, well, this is it. It’s done. But it turns out there was a lot more to it. Sam wanted to continue to buy weapons for Castro, but he needed a way to finance it.

[6:44] So he turned to his mafia brothers in Canada. They went up to Brockville, Ontario, and got a crew, and they broke into a bank and stole over $12 million.

[6:58] Now, part of that haul was over $2 million in bearer bonds. And they thought, you know, we can use this as collateral. So Sam sent one of his colleagues to Switzerland, and he goes to this bank and said, we want to borrow some money, and we’re going to use these bonds as collateral. Well, the bankers got a little suspicious. They looked at the bonds, and the edges of the paper were singed from fire from when these guys broke into the vault and used settling torches to get the boxes open. So, they called the Swiss police, the Swiss police called the Interpol, Interpol called the Mounties in Canada, and the Mounties called the FBI. And we have this international intrigue going on with Mannarino’s people meeting

[7:52] Castro’s agents in Italy to pass the bonds to him. Of course, at the end, Sam and all his colleagues got arrested in the United States for possession of those bonds. They didn’t get arrested for breaking into it because they weren’t in Canada at the time, but they did get arrested for possessing those stolen securities.

[8:12] So they went to trial in Chicago, and Sam’s luck held out, and all but one guy was acquitted, and he walked on it. By that time, John LaRocca was fed up, and so was Kelly, his brother, who fed up with the publicity that Sam was generating, and it kind of retired and put him on the shelf, so to speak. And Sam started talking to the FBI Having these long conversations.

[8:39] And at one point When I was going through these FBI records I started looking at the end of the reports They always mention who the informants are Not necessarily by name But they mention this guy and they give a number.

[8:53] And then they say what his experience is. Well, one of the things they forgot to redact was Kelly Sam Mannarino’s name. He was a registered FBI informant. Now, just as a footnote, whether he knew it or not, I don’t know. Or if these FBI agents did that just to get good with their boss.

[9:13] But, yeah, he’s listed in the files as a snitch. and i’ve seen that before up in chicago where they list the guy as an informant giving some small information but he then he lives his whole life not being an informant but then when he dies and somebody it comes out that this report that he was an informant and so i i say what agents do sometimes is they talk to a guy get some tidbits just bullshit you know conversation and then list him as informant because that’s a coup that’s a feather in their hat if they got it it’s for informant so go ahead well i had interviewed that one of the agents his name was tom of course size the third and i remember i called cold called him when i was working on a series back in the mid 90s at the newspaper and he was really nervous because i i know that they did a black bad job on the manorinas they broke in one night and yeah yes and you know he got really really nervous and kind to read us and talk, but I got some stuff out of him. At that time, though, I did not know that he had listed Sam as an informant. If I’d have known at the time, because those documents weren’t released then, I would have asked him. They’d been interested to see what he said.

[10:26] Because Sam did give them a lot of information. He was careful never to implicate his brother or his son, but he told them a lot about murders and bombings that were done and things like that. And he even told the FBI at one point, you know, he says, I did a lot of hits in my day, and I really kind of liked it. He’s a character. Great family. Only a guy like that would then think that he could. Could somehow ingratiate himself with Fidel Castro in order to, you know, become the gambling czar. I think his, I’m reading about your book here, I think his idea was he would become the new gambling czar. He would be Castro’s gambling czar who would oversee all the gambling, and all the mob bosses would have to come to him. He’d be the new Meyer Lansky. Yeah.

[11:19] But Stan just was not what you would call a student of foreign affairs. It was a long season. Really? People implicated in this. This should never have been involved. Yeah, really. And I remember at the time that they did a whole magazine spread. I believe in Life Magazine. Some reporter got down there and went up in the mountains and took these pictures. And Castro at the time was seen as a freedom fighter. It was not seen as what we see him as today. And I’m sure that Mannarino saw that. and saw him as a freedom fighter that he could then help.

[11:58] Sam knew nothing about revolution. Sam knew nothing about the economic situation in Cuba. He didn’t realize that the Batista government and his cronies were just siphoning all this money from the poor. They had a terrible—at one point, they had a pretty good economy. They had a pretty good standard of living, but the mob and Batista bled them dry. And he got these people involved that were all professional gamblers or connections to the mob, and they just wanted to continue to suck money out of Havana and out of Cuba as a whole. Sam Mannarino ran his casino, San Sushi. He wasn’t very good at it. He was not a good businessman. And eventually, he ended up selling it to Santo Traficante Jr. In a deal that was brokered by Meyer Lansky. Because at the time, Lance Traficante was buying up. He had like four or five different casinos that he was running. So they added the Sanssouci to his. And Sanssouci was a nice place. I mean, it was a very elegant casino. Manor unions couldn’t make it go. You know, they were used to the underground illegal type casinos like they had in New Kensington. And they just couldn’t make a go of it.

[13:13] Interesting. Now, a lot of these documents that you used to create your book came from the document release on the JFK assassination files. Is that correct? That’s correct. And we were just talking about this before a little bit about the House Select Committee was totally different from the Warren Commission on investigating this thing. And the House Select Committee had a different idea than the Warren Commission on this. Talk about that a little bit. What’d you learn about that? Well, there’s a book called A Cruel and Shocking Act that came out a few years ago, and it’s an inside story of the Warren Commission told from the point of view of the attorneys who work for the Warren Commission. And what’s shocking is that the FBI covered up so much, and Justice Earl Warren was not aggressive enough, and Gerald Ford was not aggressive enough in trying to get important information into the report. For example, they let Jackie Kennedy off. They didn’t want to bother her. They didn’t get a lot out of Bobby Kennedy Jr. For whatever reason, maybe fear he didn’t want to talk.

[14:35] And they had the problems with Oswald in Mexico. So there was a lot of things there that the commission was just not aggressive about. And they didn’t do enough to try to look at the mob connections.

[14:49] One of the things that surprised me was when I was looking at the initial documents, the commission wanted to talk to a number of mobsters, but they wanted to talk to Kelly and Sam Annarino. And what surprised me was the commission had interviewed a man named Alberto Ardura, who was a Castro aide who had broke with Castro, defected, and moved to Florida. They Ordura told them he heard Safficanto Traficante say we killed the wrong Kennedy DeCarlos acted rashly meaning Carlos Marcello and.

[15:29] They wanted to know if the Manorinas, he had ever heard the Manorinas say that because of their connections to Cuba. So it didn’t turn out to anything, but it was still the fact that here’s these two mafiosi in this small industrial town in western Pennsylvania being connected to the Kennedy assassination, albeit very arm’s length. Yeah, that Frank Regano, the lawyer for Traficante, in his book, he alleges that Traficante made a revelation to him that led him to believe that Traficante had something to do with that and Marcello had something to do with it. So in a manner, and the Warren Commission didn’t go down that path, but the House Select Commission did. We were just talking about this. They believed, I believe this is in your book, the House Select Committee believed Marcelo, Traficante, and Hoffa had the motive, means, and opportunity to assassinate the president. Oh, this was written by Ronald Goufarb, who was, Goufarb worked for Kennedy in the Organized Crime Division at Department of Justice. And he’s a pretty well-known name in investigating this assassination, if I remember right. Right.

[16:40] Well, Marcelo, when you talk about had the motive, he hated Bobby Kennedy. You know, Marcelo was born in French Algiers, no, French Morocco, but he had a forged birth certificate that claimed he was born in Guatemala. And so Kennedy says, oh, you’re born in Guatemala? We’re sending you back to Guatemala. So Kennedy had him deported, but he got back into the country and he hated Bobby Kennedy. So you have Travagante, you have Marcello, you have the means, you have possible motives. So, yeah, it’s very possible. And that’s what the Hustle Committee looked into very, very deeply. Yeah.

[17:17] And their files are all part of the JFK files that are out there. They’re so voluminous. I looked at some of them myself. I had a person that I know whose dad was in the Teamsters, and her dad’s name was mentioned in the JFK files. He got home and said, could you believe this? Oh, yeah. Some of the stuff that I saw in there was amazing. Some of the people that showed up, I would have had no idea. I mean, one of the guys that showed up, which is very surprising, was Art Rooney Sr., the founder of the Pittsburgh Steelers football team.

[17:51] He was a snitch. He was a government snitch. He was big into the mob, big into gambling. Yeah. He always played down his role, but I’m going to tell you, he was a very, very big time gambler. Not just on the horses, too, either. Sports gambling, a huge no-no. Oh, huge, huge no-no for somebody like that, man. I found a report. He told the FBI that he says, sometimes I’m shocked about the amount of gambling I’m interested in. And he was referring to horses. But I’ll tell you, there was a story that there was this hotel in Pittsburgh, a Fort Pitt hotel. And a couple mobsters had a wire room there. And police in Yonkers, New York called the Pittsburgh police and said, hey, you got this major international racewire gambling syndicate operating in this hotel room in Pittsburgh. You guys, we thought you’d like to have the tip. It was two years before the police moved and only because it was found out. And it was in the same hotel where Art Rooney had his offices. Yeah. And the house detective was a Pittsburgh police officer who had a room on the same floor. He knew all these guys, but yet they were able to operate. The mob was allowed to operate. Well, that’s… Gambling was in Western Pennsylvania.

[19:13] That’s how you do it at certain levels. when you got enough money to corrupt people. That’s how you do it. It was like that in Kansas City in the 30s and 40s. And in early 50s, it kind of started changing by the 60s. And time I came on in the 70s, that was pretty well all gone. We had a couple of holdouts from the old days, but it was pretty well all gone. But most police departments were, you know, they were in bed with the mob to a greater or lesser extent. Not the entire department, But some of the right ones were, at least that’s the way it was here.

[19:45] I just, I don’t know. They’re so powerful because they got into politics. And I’m sure that John LaRocca was heavily involved in politics in Pittsburgh area. Oh, yeah. There was, I found reports, and this is not in this book. It may be in a subsequent book. Mayor David Lawrence of Pittsburgh, who later became governor, his police department during his tenure as mayor. was terrible. There were constant, constant allegations of bribery and corruption, which later proved to be true. But Lawrence always kept arm’s length from it. But he had backdoor connections to John Araca. He had people who did his bidding. And those names are in the FBI report. So his reputation really is tarnished by that. I mean, because for people who who aren’t familiar with Pittsburgh history. David Lawrence was one of the motivators of the Pittsburgh Renaissance in the early 50s. And he’s been credited with that for decades and moving Pittsburgh from a shop in Beertown to a gleaming metropolis with computers, research, and medical research. But he had a very sinister little background himself.

[21:06] Not only him, but his predecessors as well. Yeah. Well, it’s, I always say it wouldn’t be a, if you didn’t have a little corruption, it wouldn’t be a big city. So that’s, that’s what he said. He actually said something that he’s unwilling

[21:19] to tolerate a certain amount of corruption. Right. To make us a big city to move. It’s a big city. Got to put up a little bit of corruption. And you know, that speaking of those cities, like all those, you talk about Alcoa aluminum, when they went down, all those Rust Belt cities, Youngstown and Cleveland, Cincinnati, as that.

[21:40] Those factories, you know, lost out and, and went down and lost business and started closing up, then the mob, they didn’t have that source of income from all those union guys that had these big paychecks. And, and I didn’t really realize that Pittsburgh was, was a loom. I always say kind of was a steel town, but also New Kensington was aluminum town. Yeah. And it’s funny because when Alcoa closed, Mannarino, Kelly had told an FBI agent, they talked all the time, which surprised me, all these informal conversations they had with Kelly. He says, yeah, New Kensington’s a dead city. No gambling here at all. And there wasn’t. Why bet on a horse? I mean, there’s just no money to spend. Why bet on a number? And he didn’t exactly provide unemployment insurance for his workers. And you had all these guys that worked in the casinos. They were now unemployed. They had to find a real job.

[22:38] Huh interesting so tell us something else out of your book that you you found particularly fascinating i guess well it was this whole thing about the the gun smuggling you know i had done like i said i had done a series in the mid 90s called mob rule about those fbi files i didn’t have all the records because they were released later on but and i had done a story earlier much minor story about the gun smuggling. And it’s always been the premise that this was the first flight out of that airport when they got caught in Morgantown. My records indicate that is the second flight. Actually, the same plane came in a month earlier, winded, and flew out somewhere, probably. They surmised to went to South Florida, and from there, they’re not sure. But what was surprising was the amount of gun smuggling that was going on. Castro’s agents were buying guns out of sporting goods stores all over the East Coast, getting them down to Florida. And there was a whole fleet of planes flying under the radar by mercenary pilots. And one of the pilots was a guy named Stuart Suter, who was caught in Morgantown. He was flying for the Manorinas.

[23:58] And there was so many stories. I mean, one of the planes involved loaded with machine guns and ammunition crashed in Guantanamo Bay.

[24:09] And that’s how they found out about the new Kensington connection. One of the documents in that crashed plane, which the Navy salvaged, was a list of these tail numbers. And one of the tail numbers was the plane used in the smuggling. And it was on a wanted list, and it had made a number of smuggling trips. so, There was a lot of money made by rogue pilots and mercenary pilots that were flying in and out of Cuba, which I thought would be very dangerous, but apparently it wasn’t all that dangerous. They were able to get into the country very easily, drop their loads, and get out. Yeah, I guess that was before the big cocaine clampdown on southern Florida. You couldn’t do that today, but before that. Even the drug smugglers, the early cocaine days, they found it really simple and easy because there’s, you know, have all the different coastlines in Florida and, you know, it could fly a little bit inland to a rural airport. And then all the ways you could drop boats, bring things in and go out of Florida. So it was probably relatively easy before the modern drug people, the modern DEA and border patrol and Coast Guard and all that got into the narcotics business. Well, the other thing, Gary, that really surprised me was how deeply influential the Manor arenas were in local government.

[25:35] They controlled the mayor. They controlled the police department. They controlled city council. They controlled the school board. They decided whether or not your taxes would increase or not. There was one instance where city council said it was going to increase the business privilege tax. So some representatives from the chamber of commerce went to see kelly.

[25:59] Kelly called the mayor yeah i’m seeing another mayor’s announcing there’s not going to be a tax increase i mean it was it was amazing he had they had the man arenas had people so frightened, that the fbi early on was trying didn’t have photographs of the man arenas.

[26:18] So they went to this business across the street from where the Manorinos had this scrapyard. And they asked the owner, he says, look, you’ve got an office on the second floor. Could we use it to stake out the Manorinos? And the guy got very nervous. And first he said yes, then he changed his mind and said no. And then first thing he did was he went to the Manorinos and told them that the FBI wanted to get their photographs. So that’s the kind of fear they inspired him. Sam had a source at Bell Telephone.

[26:51] And so, of course, he kept the list of everybody who called the Pittsburgh office of the FBI or the Internal Revenue Service. Oh, my God. And they would pay. They were looking for one guy. They were going to smash him if they could have killed him because he had been making calls to the Pittsburgh authorities. So that’s how deeply they were embedded, and that’s how scared people were because they were—he said, well, yeah. And when I was doing the story back in the 90s, people would say, you know, Rich, you’re wrong about the manner of dessert. They’re not that bad. They’re low-key. They’re not violent. And I said, bullshit. I’m calling games on that one. They had a guy, a bookie in Wheeling, West Virginia. And he was taking bets at Waterford. And the owner of the track got in trouble with the IRS over taxes, so the government seized it.

[27:44] They sold it to a consortium in Detroit where two of the members were whose parents, whose fathers were mob royalty. Yeah. Told this book, you’re cutting $30,000 out of our take on horse bets each week. Stop it. Well, he wouldn’t do it. So Sam calls this guy, his name was Nick Miller, says, Nick, come on up to New Kensington. We’ve got to talk about some business. We’ve got some business we want to talk to. I said, okay. So he goes up, goes into the house, cordial conversation. They go downstairs to Sam’s family room. Two guys grab him, hold him in a chair, and Kelly and Sam strangle him to death. Take his body, dump it in his car, and take it to Pittsburgh and let it sit there for a couple weeks until flies and the smells start massing. And, yeah, they did things like this. I mean, they were killers. It just didn’t come out at the time. So all that stuff about them being benevolent godfathers is BS. It’s not true. They were extremely violent. Very violent.

[28:48] And they had that town wired. Man, they did have that town wired. Literally wired. They wired council meetings. They wired city council meetings so they could hear what was being said. The FBI would come in the city, and these two agents that were there all the time would stay at this local hotel. Yeah. They owned the mob, but ran the motel hotel. They had their rooms wired so they could hear what the agents were talking about. That’s how deep and suspicious these guys were. It was amazing.

[29:21] Crazy, crazy, crazy. And guys, I’ll have a link down below to find this book. It’s a fascinating look at this time in Pittsburgh history and national history, international history, if you will, as you heard it. You know, this guy was stealing barrel bonds in Canada, taking them to Switzerland and dealing with Castro’s agents in Italy and Florida and other mob families. So it’s quite a book. So go back over and tell us a little bit about yourself, Rich. I was a journalist on a newspaper for 42 years before I retired. And I’ve written, this is my seventh book. I’ve written two biographies. I’ve written a book on Prohibition in Pittsburgh. I wrote a history of corruption in Pittsburgh. And I wrote a history of jazz in Pittsburgh. And I wrote a story about a serial killer. He was known as the Phantom Turnpike Killer who would drive along the Pennsylvania Turnpike killing sleeping truck drivers. And so they caught him and convicted him, and he went in the electric chair. But he was a very famous guy. It was in the 50s, and it was the Greensburg, Pennsylvania’s version of the O.J. Simpson trial. It was a very big trial at the time. It attracted a lot of national attention. Interesting. And I spent about a number of years on the newspaper as an investigative reporter.

[30:45] I’ve written about organized crime. I’ve written about public and governmental corruption. I’ve written about corporate corruption. And I just did a lot of them. I covered the courts for 10 years, and I covered more murders than I wanted to ever be involved in. But, yeah, it’s been an interesting life. I enjoyed it. Great. I’ll have a link, actually, to Rich’s Amazon author page. So you go to that, and you’ll find all of these books. I bet a lot of people are interested in two or three of those other books. And this book is Gun Smuggling, Castro’s Cuba, and the Pittsburgh Mafia, published by the History Press. So, Rich, I really appreciate you coming on the show and telling us about it. Gary, I appreciate you extending the invitation. It’s very, very pleasant to do this interview. All right, great.