WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:03.377 Hey, welcome all you wiretappers. Good to be back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. 00:00:03.697 --> 00:00:09.757 I have today Daniel Zimmerman, a little bit different sort of a story. 00:00:09.877 --> 00:00:12.777 Now, he has another book a lot of you guys might be a little more interested 00:00:12.777 --> 00:00:14.837 in. We're going to talk about that just a little bit. 00:00:14.937 --> 00:00:19.557 But the main book we're going to look at is Chasson's Run. I think I pronounced 00:00:19.557 --> 00:00:21.717 that right, Daniel. It's actually Chasson. 00:00:22.677 --> 00:00:25.797 Chasson's Run. Chasing somebody, which kind of fits the picture here. 00:00:25.997 --> 00:00:30.837 I think it's a story that, well, Daniel Zimmerman, welcome. I really appreciate you coming on. 00:00:31.357 --> 00:00:33.737 Well, thank you. I appreciate you having me for this talk. Yeah. 00:00:34.377 --> 00:00:36.277 Now, Daniel, tell the guys a 00:00:36.277 --> 00:00:39.357 little bit about yourself. So tell the guys a little bit about your story. 00:00:39.657 --> 00:00:43.237 Well, oddly enough, I am a newspaper writer, but not the type you would think. 00:00:44.057 --> 00:00:50.797 I've been writing for over 25 years now, actually, a column or columns for local newspapers. 00:00:51.097 --> 00:00:55.757 And I cover, of all things, high school sports. I go out to area high schools. 00:00:55.757 --> 00:01:00.357 I watch the games. I take notes, take interviews, grab comments from players 00:01:00.357 --> 00:01:02.537 and coaches, go home and write it. 00:01:02.657 --> 00:01:06.517 And a couple of days later, it's in the newspaper. Is that in the Boston area? 00:01:06.977 --> 00:01:10.077 Yes. Great Boston area. 25 years I've been doing it. 00:01:10.157 --> 00:01:13.697 You know, it's funny you say that because I did a library presentation for my first book. 00:01:13.757 --> 00:01:17.517 And one of the questions in the audience from a woman was, how do I translate 00:01:17.517 --> 00:01:21.337 writing high school sports into writing mob books? 00:01:21.637 --> 00:01:24.837 Yeah. And I told her, you know, there's two aspects of both. 00:01:24.837 --> 00:01:28.977 You have to, number one, be able to research, find out information. 00:01:29.657 --> 00:01:33.417 Keep track of information, and be able to do an interview with your subjects. 00:01:33.617 --> 00:01:35.437 And in this case, it would be athletes and coaches. 00:01:35.677 --> 00:01:40.737 On the book writing side, you're reaching out to suspects and police officers and so forth. 00:01:40.957 --> 00:01:43.957 So there's a technique and there's a skill you learn in both. 00:01:44.257 --> 00:01:46.497 And I think they translate well into each other. 00:01:47.057 --> 00:01:50.517 You're really both just trying, in both situations, you're trying to get people 00:01:50.517 --> 00:01:54.717 to tell you a story and give you some interesting little sound bites in both stories. 00:01:54.837 --> 00:01:57.037 Trust me. Trust me. I get that a lot. 00:01:57.257 --> 00:02:01.797 As far outside of the newspaper writing, my full-time work over the last five 00:02:01.797 --> 00:02:06.177 decades has been the first part of my life I worked as an EMT, 00:02:06.397 --> 00:02:07.877 emergency medical technician, 00:02:08.137 --> 00:02:11.757 for a private ambulance service, but it happened to be a private ambulance service 00:02:11.757 --> 00:02:17.597 located within a 15, 20-minute range of two of the most notorious prisons in Massachusetts, 00:02:17.917 --> 00:02:20.097 MCI Walpole and MCI Norfolk. 00:02:20.277 --> 00:02:24.857 And the company that I worked for as an EMT, was tasked with transporting inmates 00:02:24.857 --> 00:02:29.997 to the hospital for a wide assortment, whether it be illness or injuries, 00:02:30.397 --> 00:02:33.997 stab wounds, you name it. We were the ambulance service that handled that. 00:02:34.217 --> 00:02:39.397 The second half of my life, I transitioned from being an EMT to working for 00:02:39.397 --> 00:02:41.117 a major utility, a gas company. 00:02:41.437 --> 00:02:46.837 And I was a supervisor who would oversee crews that would repair gas leaks in 00:02:46.837 --> 00:02:48.897 the street. So pretty dangerous work. 00:02:49.524 --> 00:02:52.604 And it's kind of funny. I mentioned library talks. 00:02:53.104 --> 00:02:56.504 Another audience member had said to me, she said, so let me get this straight. 00:02:56.544 --> 00:02:59.684 You were an EMT going in and out of prisons on a regular basis. 00:02:59.744 --> 00:03:01.404 And then you switched to dealing with 00:03:01.404 --> 00:03:07.764 potentially explosive gas leaks and interview mob guys to write a book. 00:03:09.624 --> 00:03:14.004 You know, how do you sleep at night? Sleep better. 00:03:14.264 --> 00:03:17.184 Sleep better that way. Get your adrenaline out during the day. 00:03:17.184 --> 00:03:21.764 So there's another book, Shots in the Dark, The Saga of Rocco Ballero. 00:03:22.284 --> 00:03:26.824 Okay, good. Tell the guys a little bit about that, then we'll get into this book. 00:03:27.204 --> 00:03:31.004 Well, Rocco was a small time, I describe him as a petty criminal. 00:03:31.204 --> 00:03:34.184 He was part of a mafia family out of the north end of Boston. 00:03:34.964 --> 00:03:39.664 His family, the Balleros, worked directly under the main family, 00:03:39.744 --> 00:03:42.444 the major family in the Boston area, and that was the Anjulos. 00:03:42.444 --> 00:03:47.224 The Anjulos, in turn, answered Patriaca, who was out of Providence, Rhode Island. 00:03:47.504 --> 00:03:51.324 So that was the tear. Rocco's family was two down from the top. 00:03:51.524 --> 00:03:56.484 And Rocco was at the time that this story took place, only in his early 20s, early to mid-20s. 00:03:57.024 --> 00:04:01.704 And again, just coming up in the business, so to speak. The same business that 00:04:01.704 --> 00:04:04.864 his five brothers and father were all involved with all through their lives. 00:04:05.524 --> 00:04:10.184 Unfortunately, he got swept up into a double murder that he was framed for. 00:04:10.184 --> 00:04:15.684 Two people perished, a 21-year-old woman and a two-year-old toddler killed in a crossfire. 00:04:16.464 --> 00:04:18.024 And they were my aunt and my cousin. 00:04:18.944 --> 00:04:22.904 That's how I knew the story. It was 1962. I was a toddler myself. 00:04:22.904 --> 00:04:26.884 I was only two years old, so I don't have direct memory of the incident. 00:04:26.964 --> 00:04:29.624 But obviously, I grew up, family members would tell me. 00:04:29.764 --> 00:04:32.484 And then when I got to a point where I was writing on a regular basis, 00:04:32.704 --> 00:04:35.004 I decided that I was going to tell the story. 00:04:35.644 --> 00:04:40.584 And I spent a year researching it, making sure that I had the material to do what I wanted to do. 00:04:41.064 --> 00:04:45.324 And then I reached out to Rocco. He was incarcerated at MCI Norfolk at the time. 00:04:46.144 --> 00:04:48.824 And more or less, I wrote a letter and asked him if I could come see him. 00:04:49.524 --> 00:04:53.684 And he couldn't get me there fast enough. He wanted the story told. Yep. 00:04:54.184 --> 00:04:56.964 And so I went to visit him at the prison. And a few years later, 00:04:57.064 --> 00:04:59.824 you have the book written and done. And Rocco's story is told. 00:05:00.264 --> 00:05:03.204 Unfortunately, he didn't live long enough to see it happen. He died from cancer 00:05:03.204 --> 00:05:06.364 while still behind bars. I spent two years... 00:05:07.106 --> 00:05:11.066 Twice a week visiting with him at MCI Norfolk. I would go in on a Tuesday night 00:05:11.066 --> 00:05:16.746 and again on Saturday morning, and I would do these comprehensive interviews, 00:05:17.046 --> 00:05:20.406 more discussions, but I drew a lot of information from that. 00:05:20.646 --> 00:05:25.126 As time went on, Rocco and I became, I guess you could say we became friends. 00:05:25.366 --> 00:05:30.586 He introduced me to family members on the outside, provided me with documents, 00:05:30.886 --> 00:05:33.826 a stack of documents. He would mail me something every week. 00:05:33.946 --> 00:05:38.666 He introduced me to certain police officers, attorneys that were involved in his case. 00:05:39.106 --> 00:05:44.486 His brother and I became almost best of friends. We were having regular dinners. 00:05:44.666 --> 00:05:46.906 He would eat with his wife and me with my wife. 00:05:47.146 --> 00:05:50.666 We would go out to a local Italian restaurant and have a nice meal. 00:05:50.806 --> 00:05:54.346 He would tell me things, but then he would also, if there's something sensitive, 00:05:54.526 --> 00:05:57.226 he would say, you can't share this until I'm dead. 00:05:58.086 --> 00:06:03.146 And as it so happened, he passed away and I was able to share some of the things that he told me. 00:06:03.926 --> 00:06:08.086 Oh, sounds to me like spending that much time with these guys. I certainly did. 00:06:08.266 --> 00:06:10.686 Actually, there were questions being asked. I was being followed. 00:06:10.846 --> 00:06:12.686 My phone, I know, was tapped for a while. 00:06:13.286 --> 00:06:17.686 It was an early time when I first started to go out and visit with these people 00:06:17.686 --> 00:06:18.566 and have meals with them. 00:06:18.786 --> 00:06:22.326 My wife would ask me, she says, you're not going to go work for these guys, are you? 00:06:23.886 --> 00:06:26.826 I would joke and I'd say, yeah, maybe as a driver or something. 00:06:26.946 --> 00:06:30.766 You're right. I did meet a lot of interesting characters. I met people that 00:06:30.766 --> 00:06:35.126 folks would just not sit down to have a meal with them and not, 00:06:35.126 --> 00:06:36.506 you know, tremble the whole time. 00:06:36.626 --> 00:06:39.126 I got very comfortable with these folks. 00:06:39.426 --> 00:06:42.426 One of my best experiences, and I like to share this during my library talks, 00:06:42.646 --> 00:06:48.026 is that Billy Bolero, Rocco's older brother, had said to me one day, 00:06:48.166 --> 00:06:49.826 he says, Dan, I've got a surprise for you. 00:06:50.542 --> 00:06:53.062 And I said, well, what is it? And he says, well, if I tell you, 00:06:53.162 --> 00:06:54.582 it's not going to be an infinite surprise. 00:06:55.422 --> 00:06:59.262 We went to an Italian restaurant in Boston, right near the Mass General Hospital. 00:06:59.782 --> 00:07:04.202 And we sat in there and we're waiting for my surprise, having a quick meal. 00:07:05.062 --> 00:07:08.142 Needless to say, I'd done a lot of research for the book. So I knew what everybody 00:07:08.142 --> 00:07:12.002 looked like. I saw a gangster. I knew who he was and what his story was. 00:07:12.522 --> 00:07:16.442 Walking in the front door was a man with a bodyguard that had to be nine feet tall. 00:07:17.282 --> 00:07:21.182 I said to Billy, do you know who that guy is? and he says yeah of course i know 00:07:21.182 --> 00:07:26.022 who he is stand up he's here for you his name was peter lamone and peter was 00:07:26.022 --> 00:07:31.422 the head of the new england mafia for two years and so here i am sitting sharing 00:07:31.422 --> 00:07:36.522 a dinner with peter lamone former head of the and i'm saying to myself what the hell am i doing here, 00:07:37.422 --> 00:07:45.542 i'm sitting at a table with a real gangster and you know who am i i'm dan zimmerman 00:07:45.542 --> 00:07:49.682 from a little town in massachusetts It's, you know, I write high school sports. 00:07:52.302 --> 00:07:57.702 So it was very interesting. And it really a joy to meet this guy and others along the way. 00:07:57.882 --> 00:08:01.622 You know, the one thing you don't want to hear from a guy in the mob is if you 00:08:01.622 --> 00:08:02.982 ever need anything, just look me up. 00:08:03.262 --> 00:08:09.022 Don't ever take anything or even take a favor or anything because it's always out there. 00:08:09.842 --> 00:08:12.902 Yep, you're right. You're right. So, yeah, it was interesting. 00:08:13.962 --> 00:08:18.102 You know, it was stressful at times, obviously. I can't say I was ever scared. 00:08:18.102 --> 00:08:22.222 I was always more enthusiastic about the fact that I was getting an opportunity 00:08:22.222 --> 00:08:25.502 to meet and talk with some of these folks and ask questions. 00:08:25.982 --> 00:08:31.042 Mr. Lamone, once I got comfortable, I was asking him questions about Rocco that ended up in the book. 00:08:31.822 --> 00:08:35.282 And, you know, he was very willing to share what he had to say. 00:08:35.482 --> 00:08:39.642 He had spent 33 years in prison for a murder he did not commit. 00:08:40.322 --> 00:08:42.562 And he basically said to me when I would ask him a question, 00:08:42.682 --> 00:08:46.142 he says, why do I care what you write? He says, they're not going to send me back. 00:08:46.282 --> 00:08:49.562 You know, I've already given him enough of my time. 00:08:49.902 --> 00:08:53.542 So he was one of those guys that, that, that FBI agent. 00:08:54.082 --> 00:08:57.002 Yes. You borne some perjury on, wasn't he? Yeah. 00:08:57.142 --> 00:09:00.502 Yeah. He was one of the, I knew that name, but I couldn't, I couldn't put it together. 00:09:00.642 --> 00:09:03.962 Now I remember it was one of those guys that. He was one of the four, 00:09:04.062 --> 00:09:06.822 four of them were framed for a murder. 00:09:07.082 --> 00:09:12.942 A kid named Teddy Deegan was killed in the Boston area, framed up the FBI frame. These four gentlemen. 00:09:13.876 --> 00:09:17.536 Protect an informant that they had in their wheelhouse um 00:09:17.536 --> 00:09:20.596 the informant was the guy who actually did the murder guy 00:09:20.596 --> 00:09:23.496 named animal joe animal barboza barboza yeah 00:09:23.496 --> 00:09:27.996 barboza did the killing but he was working with the fbi and they didn't want 00:09:27.996 --> 00:09:32.456 to lose him to prison and so they set up these four guys including peter lamont 00:09:32.456 --> 00:09:36.116 i remember they actually filed the lawsuit against the federal government and 00:09:36.116 --> 00:09:40.876 the fbi and won they wanted 100 mil two of them died in prison they didn't get to see the money. 00:09:41.256 --> 00:09:44.756 The other two were elderly by the time they got out. Their families obviously 00:09:44.756 --> 00:09:47.936 got a piece of that, and I'm sure they're living well as a result. 00:09:48.316 --> 00:09:50.416 Yeah, that's what we call generational wealth. 00:09:51.136 --> 00:09:54.196 Yes, exactly. The next generation is going to get use of that, 00:09:54.276 --> 00:09:57.176 and maybe the next one after that, if people are smart, that's interesting. 00:09:57.336 --> 00:09:59.676 I didn't realize about the lawsuit and being that big. 00:10:00.016 --> 00:10:02.696 Yeah, actually, towards the end of the den, Mr. Lamone had said to me, 00:10:02.876 --> 00:10:04.236 he says, so Dan, let me ask you a question. 00:10:04.336 --> 00:10:09.456 He says, when this book is published, are you going to have book signings and events? 00:10:09.656 --> 00:10:12.996 I said, yeah, I'll do that. Definitely. He says, good. He says, 00:10:13.076 --> 00:10:15.176 I'm coming to your first one. Make sure I get an invite. 00:10:15.476 --> 00:10:18.856 And he says, I want to be first in line, not your wife, not your family, 00:10:18.956 --> 00:10:21.316 not your friends, me, Mr. Lamont. 00:10:21.656 --> 00:10:25.976 He says, but I just won $25 million. So I'm going to buy a bunch of copies. 00:10:29.756 --> 00:10:33.836 I know about that book sales. That's a good sign there. That's a good deal. 00:10:33.836 --> 00:10:36.236 Yeah, it was a good deal. He's not still alive, is he? 00:10:36.656 --> 00:10:39.796 No. He passed away from cancer. Bill Lamone, Rocco's brother, 00:10:39.876 --> 00:10:41.476 Billy Valero, Rocco himself. 00:10:41.856 --> 00:10:45.856 There was a window of about three years where they all passed away in their 00:10:45.856 --> 00:10:47.316 late 70s. It was kind of sad. 00:10:48.643 --> 00:10:51.383 I made some good friends, and I lost them all at the same time. All right. 00:10:51.443 --> 00:10:55.243 That's a great start for our show today, guys. As you all know, 00:10:55.363 --> 00:10:58.543 we're going to talk about Daniel's most recent book, Chasson's Run. 00:10:58.923 --> 00:11:03.083 And so the prison break that captivated America and the love story that fueled 00:11:03.083 --> 00:11:05.723 it. Now, we know about the one up at Dannemore. 00:11:05.843 --> 00:11:10.163 It seems like this thing where a woman helps a guy break out of the penitentiary 00:11:10.163 --> 00:11:13.303 and goes on the run with him is an oft-told tale. 00:11:13.563 --> 00:11:16.463 This is another one of them. So tell us about this. 00:11:16.543 --> 00:11:20.083 How'd you get onto this? As I see, Escape from Walpole, was this something that 00:11:20.083 --> 00:11:21.703 happened when you were working around there? 00:11:21.903 --> 00:11:25.183 Yeah, as a matter of fact, so, you know, people ask me with Rocco's book, 00:11:25.343 --> 00:11:28.243 I mean, Shots in the Dark, the first book, my connection. 00:11:28.423 --> 00:11:31.823 Obviously, my connection with the two victims in the shootings were my aunt and my cousin. 00:11:32.183 --> 00:11:34.043 So I get the same question on 00:11:34.043 --> 00:11:39.003 the second book and not quite as strong a connection, but there was one. 00:11:39.243 --> 00:11:42.903 As I mentioned, I worked as an EMT for the private ambulance service that handled 00:11:42.903 --> 00:11:45.383 prison transports of these inmates. 00:11:45.983 --> 00:11:51.823 And come Labor Day weekend, 1982, I was scheduled to work that weekend shift. 00:11:52.623 --> 00:11:57.303 And I had a girlfriend of a couple of years and she and I talked about running 00:11:57.303 --> 00:11:59.023 off for the weekend, the long weekend visit. 00:11:59.243 --> 00:12:01.303 We wanted to visit Montreal was our destination. 00:12:01.603 --> 00:12:04.763 So I reached out to one of my coworkers at the ambulance company and I asked 00:12:04.763 --> 00:12:07.063 him, I said, would you mind doing a swap? Can you work for me? 00:12:07.583 --> 00:12:09.963 And he agreed. It was a holiday weekend. 00:12:10.483 --> 00:12:14.583 Labor Day weekend is the last weekend of the summer season. Everybody tries 00:12:14.583 --> 00:12:17.503 to go away before the colder weather sets in up here in New England. 00:12:17.983 --> 00:12:23.023 He agreed. So off to Montreal, I go and come back to work Tuesday morning. 00:12:23.823 --> 00:12:27.983 And this gentleman's name is Bobby. I walk in the office, ready to go to work again. 00:12:28.123 --> 00:12:32.343 And Bobby comes over to me and he puts a hand on my neck as if he's strangling me. 00:12:32.523 --> 00:12:36.803 And he says, Zimmerman, I am never working for you again. And I said, 00:12:36.903 --> 00:12:38.603 Bobby, what happened? What is it? What happened? 00:12:39.103 --> 00:12:43.283 He says, because of you and me working for you, I had a gun held on me. 00:12:43.383 --> 00:12:44.643 I should be dead right now. 00:12:46.063 --> 00:12:50.183 He was one of the two EMTs that transported Leroy to the hospital. 00:12:50.383 --> 00:12:54.243 The other one was a gentleman named Paul, Paul Kilroy. He's in the book. 00:12:54.523 --> 00:13:00.563 So the two of them were the EMS team that handled Leroy's transport from Walpole 00:13:00.563 --> 00:13:04.223 prison to the Norwood hospital, which is where a lot of strange things took place. 00:13:04.463 --> 00:13:08.803 It should have actually been me. And years later, about seven years later, 00:13:09.263 --> 00:13:15.583 1989, America's Most Wanted, that TV show that everybody's aware of, did a feature on Chasen. 00:13:15.803 --> 00:13:20.603 He had been gone so long and the FBI was kind of losing track of him and not 00:13:20.603 --> 00:13:23.443 having any evidence or leads coming in to be able to find him. 00:13:24.175 --> 00:13:30.475 America's Most Wanted did a feature on him in 1988. The first year didn't turn up any good leads. 00:13:30.575 --> 00:13:33.135 A lot of people watch the show, obviously, but no leads. 00:13:33.295 --> 00:13:35.355 But the next year they rebroadcast it. 00:13:35.775 --> 00:13:41.555 The funny story behind that is the America's Most Wanted producers came to the office where I worked. 00:13:42.075 --> 00:13:46.835 And when they wanted to do the recreation of the escape, they wanted to hire 00:13:46.835 --> 00:13:51.495 an ambulance and two EMTs to act as the actors. 00:13:52.195 --> 00:13:56.735 And go through the whole process, start to finish, and film it all. 00:13:57.455 --> 00:14:00.315 And when they came to the office, the office manager looked at me, 00:14:00.435 --> 00:14:02.495 and, you know, I'm in uniform. I'm ready to go do calls. 00:14:02.915 --> 00:14:06.955 He says, hey, Zimmerman, why don't you be one of the EMTs? You missed it the 00:14:06.955 --> 00:14:08.775 first time. You might as well do it the second time. 00:14:10.895 --> 00:14:13.535 So, you know, it's funny. I said to him, you know, to be honest, 00:14:13.735 --> 00:14:17.135 I really don't want to associate myself with a criminal like Leroy Jason. 00:14:18.015 --> 00:14:20.655 Give it to somebody else. and he 00:14:20.655 --> 00:14:23.695 said all right suit yourself turns out the two 00:14:23.695 --> 00:14:27.075 emts that were hired ended up getting substantial 00:14:27.075 --> 00:14:31.075 royalty checks now killer and 00:14:31.075 --> 00:14:37.455 i was left out in the cold oh man yeah yeah one of them one of them knew i had 00:14:37.455 --> 00:14:41.535 turned down the job and came over to me with this check kind of held it up in 00:14:41.535 --> 00:14:49.235 front of my face so that really was my connection to what took place working for the company, 00:14:49.395 --> 00:14:52.375 being aware of the people who were involved directly. 00:14:53.055 --> 00:14:56.055 And in later years, when I decided to write the book and I started to do the 00:14:56.055 --> 00:15:00.535 research and do interviews, I took them both out for a quick meal and we sat down. 00:15:00.715 --> 00:15:04.475 And even though I knew the mechanics and I knew the locations very well, 00:15:04.575 --> 00:15:08.975 because I'd been there so many times myself, I wanted that firsthand view. 00:15:09.095 --> 00:15:10.835 So I sat down with both the EMTs. 00:15:11.662 --> 00:15:15.442 And they were very good about sharing the experience with me. 00:15:15.562 --> 00:15:18.562 Even years later, in the escape of that degree, you don't forget. 00:15:18.922 --> 00:15:22.042 Even four decades or five decades later, you don't forget. 00:15:22.662 --> 00:15:26.942 That's what we call a peak experience in your life. And when it's a peak experience, 00:15:27.062 --> 00:15:28.602 you usually remember a lot of details. 00:15:29.562 --> 00:15:31.602 I've had a lot of peak experiences. 00:15:32.682 --> 00:15:38.462 Those death-defying moments. Tell us about Leroy Chase. This is a bad, bad, bad. 00:15:38.602 --> 00:15:41.522 And you went all the way back into his early history. I mean, 00:15:41.602 --> 00:15:45.502 I'm looking at this stuff, you know, he starts off in reformatory and, 00:15:45.562 --> 00:15:52.462 you know, going to the different facilities that young men go to as they start in that criminal world. 00:15:52.642 --> 00:15:56.662 So tell us a little bit about Leroy Chasen. Well, I mean, his rap sheet, 00:15:56.662 --> 00:16:00.822 he started as an eight-year-old, nine-year-old breaking into houses. 00:16:01.402 --> 00:16:05.742 He grew up in a town up in western Maine, the town of Rumford, 00:16:06.182 --> 00:16:10.722 which is known for rivers and mountains and woodmills. 00:16:11.022 --> 00:16:12.162 Really not much else. 00:16:12.502 --> 00:16:16.782 But his father, because of the size of the family, there were so many children. 00:16:17.042 --> 00:16:20.542 There were actually two sets of twins. Leroy was on the lower end. 00:16:20.622 --> 00:16:24.162 He was one of the younger kids. In fact, when he was born, one of his brothers 00:16:24.162 --> 00:16:25.422 was already 20 years old. 00:16:25.982 --> 00:16:30.922 The father decided to move to Massachusetts to find more and better work to feed his family. 00:16:31.562 --> 00:16:35.782 Lee, Leroy came along with him and the rest of the clan that was still living at home. 00:16:36.322 --> 00:16:40.642 And he started breaking into houses. He started setting fires. 00:16:40.962 --> 00:16:45.362 He had a knack for lighting cars and garages on fire and things like that. 00:16:45.682 --> 00:16:49.282 He wasn't very good at getting away with things either. The police were always 00:16:49.282 --> 00:16:53.302 knocking on his door, putting handcuffs on him in some form or another. 00:16:53.302 --> 00:16:57.382 He ended up in the Massachusetts Reform School system. 00:16:58.186 --> 00:17:04.066 Seven buildings scattered throughout the state, all catering to young children up to the age of 17. 00:17:04.726 --> 00:17:08.946 And they were just terrible places. My first book, Rocco had spent some time 00:17:08.946 --> 00:17:14.806 in one, and he shared some of the experiences of the inner workings of the Massachusetts 00:17:14.806 --> 00:17:17.666 reform school system. And it wasn't very pleasant for the kids. 00:17:18.086 --> 00:17:21.186 A lot of violence, a lot of mistreatment. 00:17:21.506 --> 00:17:24.046 Well, you know, what typically happened, and I'm not saying that's the reason 00:17:24.046 --> 00:17:27.346 behind it, but these schools were run by husband and wife couples. 00:17:28.186 --> 00:17:32.486 So the husband would be hired by the state, he'd be a live-in caretaker, 00:17:32.606 --> 00:17:35.506 and the wife would go along because they had housing for them. 00:17:35.826 --> 00:17:39.846 And the wife would contribute to the punishment of the children and so forth. 00:17:40.546 --> 00:17:45.226 So, you know, Leroy would, because of the treatment and because of how difficult 00:17:45.226 --> 00:17:47.526 it was in these places, he would escape. 00:17:47.726 --> 00:17:50.626 It's where he learned his early years on how to get out of these places. 00:17:50.826 --> 00:17:54.566 And he was always escaping, but then he was always being brought back. 00:17:54.566 --> 00:17:59.266 The police in the areas, one of the most notorious one was in a town called Westboro, 00:17:59.366 --> 00:18:05.466 and the police would actually pick up these kids and not want to bring them 00:18:05.466 --> 00:18:10.366 back because they knew what was going on in these places and just felt so bad for these kids. 00:18:10.526 --> 00:18:12.606 They didn't want to bring them back, but they really had no choice. 00:18:12.746 --> 00:18:14.726 They couldn't bring them home. There was nowhere else for them to go. 00:18:15.066 --> 00:18:18.186 There was one story about one of the reform schools. 00:18:18.426 --> 00:18:23.626 A police officer was returning a runaway, heard screaming from inside the building. 00:18:24.406 --> 00:18:28.646 And hesitated bringing back the kid that he had with him. He just said it was just horrible. 00:18:28.966 --> 00:18:33.486 They decided that in the 70s, the new administrations, the new people came in, 00:18:33.926 --> 00:18:35.526 decided to shut down the system. 00:18:35.746 --> 00:18:39.326 And they did. They succeeded by the late 70s in shutting down the reform schools. 00:18:39.926 --> 00:18:45.206 But by then, Leroy had graduated. He graduated to the grown-up facilities. Yeah. 00:18:46.708 --> 00:18:50.788 And the reason that the crime that he committed that basically put him behind 00:18:50.788 --> 00:18:57.208 real bars and a real prison, this was MCI Concord, was he fired a gun at some 00:18:57.208 --> 00:19:00.988 kids that were hanging out in front of his apartment. 00:19:01.128 --> 00:19:06.608 He had an apartment in the town of Somerville, and he shot a gun out the window 00:19:06.608 --> 00:19:08.008 and actually hit a girl in the face. 00:19:08.448 --> 00:19:13.928 She was wounded, scarred for life, and Leroy went off to prison at MCI Concord. 00:19:14.488 --> 00:19:18.788 Did his time, short time, because he was still young and the system was forgiving. 00:19:19.368 --> 00:19:23.328 They worked hard to get out and they let them out. And he, from that point, 00:19:23.528 --> 00:19:25.688 went on to his first armed robbery. 00:19:26.328 --> 00:19:30.908 He robbed a pharmacy in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and they captured him there. 00:19:31.128 --> 00:19:34.888 It was armed robbery. He had a gun with him. He actually took a police officer hostage for a while. 00:19:35.128 --> 00:19:37.688 In the basement, he had tried to escape through the basement. 00:19:37.948 --> 00:19:41.228 The police officer went down into the basement and Leroy grabbed him, 00:19:41.288 --> 00:19:44.028 held the gun to his head, and actually to the back of his neck, 00:19:44.248 --> 00:19:49.828 the cop negotiated his release saying, if you let me go, you'll live. 00:19:50.328 --> 00:19:55.108 If you don't, you'll die. My friends upstairs will not let you leave here alive. 00:19:55.228 --> 00:19:58.528 Leroy wasn't suicidal by any means that he did what he had to do to get out 00:19:58.528 --> 00:20:03.088 of that situation and back to prison. He went this time to the big house, to Walpole. 00:20:03.328 --> 00:20:10.248 Walpole. So yeah, Walpole was one of the most difficult prisons to be in, 00:20:10.368 --> 00:20:14.148 to be incarcerated in, and obviously to escape from. 00:20:14.608 --> 00:20:18.388 18-foot walls topped with electric barbed wire. 00:20:18.928 --> 00:20:23.768 Just a lot of corrections officers, a lot of turrets and guard shacks along the wall. 00:20:23.868 --> 00:20:25.568 In fact, on the cover of the book, 00:20:25.628 --> 00:20:28.948 there's a picture of one of them that I happened to take for the cover. 00:20:29.388 --> 00:20:33.388 And you just weren't getting out of this place, not in the conventional means. 00:20:34.448 --> 00:20:38.188 And it was just a terrible prison. They had a block in Walpole. 00:20:38.348 --> 00:20:40.828 It was called Ten Block. It was pretty famous. 00:20:41.668 --> 00:20:45.068 Obviously, all the inmates knew it, but people on the outside had been made 00:20:45.068 --> 00:20:49.508 aware of it through newspaper articles and hearsay and other stories. 00:20:50.168 --> 00:20:53.248 And Ten Block was reserved for the worst of the worst. 00:20:53.868 --> 00:20:59.228 These criminals that were held in those cells were so violent that they couldn't 00:20:59.228 --> 00:21:00.208 even mix with each other. 00:21:00.868 --> 00:21:05.088 To get them there 23 hours a day in the cell, one hour to the outside, 00:21:05.408 --> 00:21:10.928 they actually had individual cages that would feed at the back of their cell with an extra door. 00:21:11.188 --> 00:21:16.628 And they would open those doors. The inmate would come out into this cage of wire top to bottom. 00:21:16.808 --> 00:21:19.768 And that's where they'd get their fresh air and exercise time. 00:21:19.948 --> 00:21:22.948 You know, in certain days when we were going in with the inmate to pick up an 00:21:22.948 --> 00:21:26.188 inmate, you had to drive from the front gate. 00:21:26.308 --> 00:21:29.808 They called it the trap. You drove from that point to the back of the prison 00:21:29.808 --> 00:21:33.248 where the infirmary was, and you drove by the 10-block cages, 00:21:33.268 --> 00:21:34.688 and sometimes they were out. 00:21:35.088 --> 00:21:38.208 And the stuff they would say to you, they would yell things at you. 00:21:38.408 --> 00:21:40.688 They had pretend shotguns that would shoot at you. 00:21:41.328 --> 00:21:46.528 Just nasty people. Needless to say, Mr. Chasen spent some substantial time in 00:21:46.528 --> 00:21:48.188 the worst block in the prison. 00:21:48.488 --> 00:21:52.428 I was reading through your book. I know he was not a model prisoner either. 00:21:52.568 --> 00:21:56.668 He did some things, a lot of assaults, a lot of them on corrections offices. 00:21:56.668 --> 00:22:00.428 There was one time where he was acting out of sorts during a family visit, 00:22:00.608 --> 00:22:04.968 and after the family visit, one of the protocol is that they do a strip search 00:22:04.968 --> 00:22:09.228 to make sure that family members haven't transferred any contraband to the prisoner. 00:22:09.368 --> 00:22:12.208 And he refused to disrobe so they could do their strip search. 00:22:12.608 --> 00:22:19.268 And he basically took down four corrections officers who tried to force him. He hurt two of them. 00:22:19.668 --> 00:22:24.348 That was just his way. That's how he resolved things. He tried to bribe corrections officers. 00:22:24.348 --> 00:22:29.108 He threw things in their faces when they would deliver things to his cell just 00:22:29.108 --> 00:22:32.448 not a very nice guy but then he would turn around you know i guess you could 00:22:32.448 --> 00:22:36.068 say if he had a heart i noticed in his record i counted, 00:22:36.668 --> 00:22:43.128 dozens of blood donations he gave yeah and i'm like why is this guy giving so 00:22:43.128 --> 00:22:47.368 much blood and then i come find out they earn points towards parole so that's 00:22:47.368 --> 00:22:51.668 why every chance he could donate blood they would add to his it would speed 00:22:51.668 --> 00:22:55.568 up his parole and eventually he did get paroled after the Yanmaraburi. 00:22:55.848 --> 00:23:00.588 He was sent away for 7 or 15 years. He didn't do nearly that bunch. 00:23:01.688 --> 00:23:04.288 And was eventually released in 1977. 00:23:05.808 --> 00:23:07.428 Early that summer, he was out. 00:23:08.935 --> 00:23:13.795 In Massachusetts, there's kind of the well-known story of Dukakis and letting 00:23:13.795 --> 00:23:16.875 Willie Horton out on a furlough. Yes. 00:23:17.355 --> 00:23:21.935 He would be the kind of guy that would be like Willie Horton out on a furlough. 00:23:22.355 --> 00:23:26.395 In my first book, Rocco was out of that furlough program. 00:23:27.435 --> 00:23:31.435 Yes, he was. He applied for the furlough. It was a new program for him at his stage. 00:23:31.735 --> 00:23:38.215 And they awarded it to him. And so he was actually going out on the weekends, leaving the prison. 00:23:38.935 --> 00:23:42.595 And going into the city, into Boston, to spend time with his family members. 00:23:42.715 --> 00:23:45.855 And he would go back, and he stuck to it. He returned every time. 00:23:46.415 --> 00:23:50.555 The program was under threat. A lot of people were pushing to have it ended. 00:23:50.815 --> 00:23:54.115 They just didn't want some of these inmates being released, even for a minute, 00:23:54.235 --> 00:23:55.995 never mind a whole weekend or more. 00:23:56.335 --> 00:24:00.895 So as a result, Rocco Bolero got upset about that, and he escaped. 00:24:02.115 --> 00:24:06.495 He left. Yeah, he was on a work detail, working one of the farms at a prison. 00:24:06.495 --> 00:24:10.215 And he had it arranged so that one of his friends would pick him up. 00:24:10.335 --> 00:24:13.335 And he ended up in San Francisco and he was there for about three months before 00:24:13.335 --> 00:24:14.735 they tracked him down and brought him back. 00:24:15.175 --> 00:24:20.335 Chasen did apply for furloughs, but he just never really got to the point where 00:24:20.335 --> 00:24:23.775 they felt comfortable letting him out even for a few minutes. 00:24:24.035 --> 00:24:28.295 That furlough program, there's a lot of politicians from the 70s in Massachusetts 00:24:28.295 --> 00:24:31.215 that say that cost Mike Dukakis the presidential. 00:24:31.375 --> 00:24:37.975 Remember it. President Bush actually put up billboards advertising Dukakis' 00:24:38.235 --> 00:24:41.715 softness on crime because he let out Willie Horton. 00:24:42.315 --> 00:24:46.955 Willie Horton was a vicious murderer. He ended up in prison for killing a 17-year-old 00:24:46.955 --> 00:24:52.235 gas station attendant, stabbed him over 17 times, stuffed him in a trash can, 00:24:52.355 --> 00:24:54.055 and off to prison, Mr. Horton goes. 00:24:54.735 --> 00:24:57.735 Well, Dukakis' program, he gets out. 00:24:58.055 --> 00:25:03.755 He runs off into Maryland and rapes a woman and beats her husband pretty badly. 00:25:04.435 --> 00:25:07.875 And so he gets arrested in Maryland for that crime. 00:25:08.235 --> 00:25:12.035 And the Massachusetts authorities said, well, we want our guy back. 00:25:12.135 --> 00:25:14.375 We want Horton back in our prison system. 00:25:14.555 --> 00:25:18.275 And the people in Maryland said, no way. You let him out once. 00:25:18.535 --> 00:25:20.875 We're not going to send him back so you can let him out again. 00:25:21.155 --> 00:25:26.235 To this day, he's still incarcerated. and they never let him come back to Massachusetts. That's interesting. 00:25:26.675 --> 00:25:29.435 I didn't know we were going there when I asked that question about that. 00:25:29.555 --> 00:25:32.395 That's an interesting story. And George Bush, the first George Bush. 00:25:32.835 --> 00:25:37.935 I remember those ads. They really crucified him on that Willie Orton story. 00:25:38.055 --> 00:25:39.495 Yes, they did. The other reason I remember it. 00:25:39.895 --> 00:25:43.955 Yep, and it was a good reason too because that furlough program was ridiculous. 00:25:44.175 --> 00:25:45.735 They should never have done something like that. 00:25:46.415 --> 00:25:50.155 Not with some of these guys. It was designed for the lesser criminals. 00:25:50.455 --> 00:25:54.395 They never wanted murderers to be let out for a weekend. But the politicians 00:25:54.395 --> 00:25:58.555 in the state tend to bleeding hearts, and they decided to, they went to the 00:25:58.555 --> 00:26:01.515 Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said, yeah, you got to make it fair. 00:26:01.675 --> 00:26:02.655 All inmates are eligible. 00:26:02.895 --> 00:26:06.055 And so the murderers started getting out, too, and that caused problems. 00:26:06.928 --> 00:26:11.048 Obvious problems. Interesting. Getting back to Leroy. 00:26:11.248 --> 00:26:16.168 Now, he gets out later on in midlife before he goes back in this final time. 00:26:16.268 --> 00:26:20.288 Well, what crime put him back in this final time? I have to assume he just continued 00:26:20.288 --> 00:26:24.628 to do robberies, little robberies and stuff all along. He never was a master criminal. 00:26:25.128 --> 00:26:29.688 Yeah, he wasn't really a master criminal. He did things enough to survive and feed his drug habit. 00:26:30.008 --> 00:26:34.088 He murdered a kid in Quincy, if you're familiar with Quincy, 00:26:34.168 --> 00:26:39.528 Massachusetts. The story behind the murder was he had a friend in prison at MCI Concord. 00:26:40.448 --> 00:26:44.528 His name was Mark Bray, B-R-A-Y. And Chasen were good friends. 00:26:45.168 --> 00:26:49.988 Chasen was getting out on parole, legitimate release that summer of 77. 00:26:51.928 --> 00:26:56.468 And Bray had escaped. And he was on the run. He wanted some money that was owed 00:26:56.468 --> 00:26:58.848 to him on a drug deal. They met. 00:26:59.608 --> 00:27:02.688 And he says, there's a guy in Quincy that owes me some cash. 00:27:03.128 --> 00:27:06.308 He didn't give me the drugs he prompts me in jail and i 00:27:06.308 --> 00:27:12.088 want my money and chasing agreed to go get it for him so he gets a ride down 00:27:12.088 --> 00:27:16.928 to quincy and he goes to a park pageant field is the name of the park and there's 00:27:16.928 --> 00:27:20.628 a group of kids there they basically meet there every night they have a few 00:27:20.628 --> 00:27:24.548 beers and they chit chat they talk to each other and nothing crazy on their 20s, 00:27:25.128 --> 00:27:32.028 and he approaches the gentleman that owes the money to his friend and demands the money or drugs. 00:27:32.348 --> 00:27:37.048 And the other guy, his name is Kevin, he had basically stopped doing drugs, 00:27:37.208 --> 00:27:39.268 stopped distributing drugs. He wasn't involved anymore. 00:27:40.008 --> 00:27:44.608 And he really wasn't going to respond the way Mr. Chasen wanted him to. 00:27:45.308 --> 00:27:50.068 So Leroy knocked him to the ground, punched him really hard in the face, knocked him down. 00:27:51.208 --> 00:27:55.088 Kevin Rousset's friends saw this happen and they all come running to his aid. 00:27:55.908 --> 00:28:01.268 And a couple of them jumped on Leroy Chasen, who produced a knife and stabbed 00:28:01.268 --> 00:28:05.448 two of them and then threatened the rest of them before he was taken out of 00:28:05.448 --> 00:28:07.488 the park by the friend that brought him there. 00:28:07.828 --> 00:28:12.468 One of the people that he stabbed, Paul Melody, was 20. He perished. 00:28:12.968 --> 00:28:17.788 And the other guy, he was wounded in the kidneys, but they did surgery and he recovered fully. 00:28:18.388 --> 00:28:24.348 A side note on Mr. Melody, the victim, his dad was a Boston police officer, just retired. 00:28:25.048 --> 00:28:30.768 So Leroy left, and then he went on the run with Mark Bray and a third gentleman. 00:28:31.228 --> 00:28:35.588 They made a stop in Somerville where his apartment was to get some clothing 00:28:35.588 --> 00:28:39.308 because his clothing was covered with blood and a couple of guns that he had 00:28:39.308 --> 00:28:40.308 stashed in the apartment. 00:28:41.416 --> 00:28:44.656 He lived there with his girlfriend. Her name was Linnell. 00:28:45.436 --> 00:28:48.676 After they took off to go on their run, trying to get out of Massachusetts, 00:28:48.676 --> 00:28:51.116 more or less, the police stormed that apartment. 00:28:51.596 --> 00:28:55.936 State police, Somerville police, a lot of police. They questioned Linnell, her roommate. 00:28:56.696 --> 00:29:00.456 And the third wheel that had been with Leroy, who decided not to go with Leroy, 00:29:00.536 --> 00:29:04.836 he decided to stay and face the music, more or less. He wasn't involved in the murder in any way. 00:29:05.396 --> 00:29:11.316 He'd stolen a car and just some minor stuff. So he decided to stay and face 00:29:11.316 --> 00:29:16.636 the cops while Leroy and Mark Bray basically took off and they were gone. 00:29:16.876 --> 00:29:20.116 And they kind of lingered around the city a little while, spent the night in 00:29:20.116 --> 00:29:23.296 Rhode Island while they kind of planned what they were going to do. 00:29:24.016 --> 00:29:28.536 Jason's thought was they would go to Montreal, Canada, and hide there. 00:29:28.936 --> 00:29:31.636 Mark Bray wanted to go to Florida. He felt it was warmer. 00:29:32.956 --> 00:29:36.196 And he had friends there. They didn't get to either one of them. 00:29:36.196 --> 00:29:41.836 And after about a week on the run, they decided to rob a store in Maine, 00:29:42.236 --> 00:29:48.176 an antique store that they had heard had some very expensive clocks that they could sell. 00:29:48.276 --> 00:29:51.576 They could fence for cash to feed their escape. 00:29:52.376 --> 00:29:57.356 And so at that store, they were apprehended by a couple of Maine cops. 00:29:57.736 --> 00:29:59.616 You know, people always say you can get away with stuff in Maine, 00:29:59.736 --> 00:30:01.396 but these guys weren't having it. 00:30:01.636 --> 00:30:05.796 One was a former New York City police detective and the other was a local cop. 00:30:05.796 --> 00:30:06.816 It was pretty well seasoned. 00:30:07.036 --> 00:30:12.076 And they set up a bit of a sting at the antique store and arrested all three of them. 00:30:12.436 --> 00:30:16.876 The third one was Kathleen McDonald, Leroy's wife. 00:30:17.756 --> 00:30:24.216 They had met her in Boston. It was an arranged meeting. She had met Leroy in prison. 00:30:25.016 --> 00:30:27.116 And they got married in prison chapel. 00:30:28.256 --> 00:30:32.196 And so she was meeting with him, and she was going to run with him. 00:30:32.696 --> 00:30:36.876 She went with them on the robbery of the antique store. And she was going to 00:30:36.876 --> 00:30:40.896 basically go home from there, and they were going to run off to Canada. 00:30:41.396 --> 00:30:44.796 But she was apprehended with the two suspects, and she became one herself. 00:30:45.816 --> 00:30:51.156 She had a very interesting story. She was a married woman from Weymouth, 00:30:51.216 --> 00:30:54.956 Massachusetts, which is very close to Quincy. She and her husband had six children. 00:30:56.016 --> 00:31:02.036 And she unfortunately turned to drugs, a lot of drinking, and they ended up 00:31:02.036 --> 00:31:07.676 getting a divorce. He took custody of the kids, and she went off with Mr. Jason. 00:31:08.576 --> 00:31:13.036 She met him as a pen pal. Leroy was looking for money to conduct an appeal. 00:31:13.536 --> 00:31:15.556 His lawyer told him he needed $500. 00:31:16.496 --> 00:31:24.136 So he put an ad in a Boston newspaper that he wanted 500 people to send him $1 each. 00:31:25.356 --> 00:31:29.916 Kathleen saw the ad. She sent him $1 and a greeting card, and the rest is history. 00:31:30.116 --> 00:31:35.276 They began writing to each other. She started to visit him at the prison and 00:31:35.276 --> 00:31:39.716 they fell in love and she orchestrated his escape. 00:31:40.966 --> 00:31:45.506 All right. Interesting. We won't roll into the whole escape because you got 00:31:45.506 --> 00:31:47.226 to leave the guys something that they want. 00:31:47.486 --> 00:31:52.486 But tell us just kind of an overview of how did she get in? I mean, 00:31:52.626 --> 00:31:54.366 she was on the outside, I assume. 00:31:54.886 --> 00:31:58.946 Yeah. You mentioned that she had some EMTs that were held at gunpoint that night. 00:31:58.986 --> 00:32:02.486 So just kind of a quick little brush over on how this got started. 00:32:02.726 --> 00:32:05.186 Well, she was a pretty intelligent woman. Between the two of them, 00:32:05.286 --> 00:32:07.726 they figured that the only way really to escape from Walpole prison, 00:32:07.986 --> 00:32:09.926 only one other guy had done it previously. 00:32:10.426 --> 00:32:18.666 He was a very very thin man of maybe 110 pounds and he hid in the wheel weld of the preacher's car. 00:32:20.066 --> 00:32:23.006 Of a station wagon there's an old you know 00:32:23.006 --> 00:32:25.766 it was in the 70s so you know those cars how big they were 00:32:25.766 --> 00:32:28.886 and all the side decided the interior body the the 00:32:28.886 --> 00:32:31.626 plastic off climbed in there pull it back on and off the 00:32:31.626 --> 00:32:34.426 the priest drove and when he got outside he jumped out of the car 00:32:34.426 --> 00:32:37.146 and he captured him in about two days they figured out where 00:32:37.146 --> 00:32:39.786 he was going so the really the only way to 00:32:39.786 --> 00:32:43.346 get out of walpole prison other than parole is to 00:32:43.346 --> 00:32:46.326 escape on the outside yeah so instead 00:32:46.326 --> 00:32:50.206 of the inside there's no way getting out of that place from the inside i saw 00:32:50.206 --> 00:32:53.466 enough of it over the years to realize you know because you think of those things 00:32:53.466 --> 00:32:59.026 as you're in the prison you know if i were in here how could i get out and just 00:32:59.026 --> 00:33:05.506 just really absolutely impossible rocco in my first book rocco and i had a discussion about escapes. 00:33:06.286 --> 00:33:10.866 And Rocco and a group of other men actually tried to dig a tunnel out of there. 00:33:11.520 --> 00:33:14.600 Yes, they do make license plates at Walpole Prison. 00:33:16.040 --> 00:33:19.660 They made them in the foundry. Everybody driving in Massachusetts, 00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:25.380 the license plate on the back of their car back in the 70s and 80s was made at Walpole Prison. 00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:31.960 That's not just a myth. They also made other items for sale in the little craft 00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:35.900 shop in the visiting area. And they made things out of metal and people would buy them. 00:33:36.120 --> 00:33:38.700 That's how they fed their canteens so they could buy things in the prison. 00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:42.760 So yeah, they dug a tunnel and halfway across the yard underneath, 00:33:42.780 --> 00:33:47.460 they actually ran into a brick wall. And I'm sure you've heard that phrase. 00:33:47.600 --> 00:33:54.080 When they built MCI Walpole and MCI Norfolk, it was a very secretive construction project. 00:33:54.620 --> 00:33:59.040 People who built it were sworn to secrecy. And what they had done is they built 00:33:59.040 --> 00:34:04.980 that wall from the surface, the dirt surface, down all the way around the interior of the prison. 00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:09.020 So that if anybody tried to dig a tunnel towards the actual main wall, 00:34:09.220 --> 00:34:11.940 there was no way getting past that. 00:34:12.200 --> 00:34:16.420 So needless to say, the only way to get out of the Walpole prison was to escape from the outside. 00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:23.620 So Leroy and Kathleen figured out a way to get him out so that they could execute an escape. 00:34:23.620 --> 00:34:26.920 And the way they did that was Leroy got 00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:29.820 hold of a ballpoint pen and stabbed himself 00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:33.420 in the abdomen three times and Kathleen 00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:36.680 had some nursing experience she at one 00:34:36.680 --> 00:34:41.100 time had her nurse's aid license so she had a little bit of knowledge and she 00:34:41.100 --> 00:34:45.880 knew that if he stabbed himself in the abdomen number one it would bleed a lot 00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:50.480 and look worse than it really was and number two one of the The protocol at 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:53.960 MCI Walpole or all prisons in Massachusetts was if an inmate left the facility, 00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:56.440 he had to have a belly chain. 00:34:56.620 --> 00:35:00.300 So it was a chain that would wrap around your belly all the way around the back to the front. 00:35:00.500 --> 00:35:04.280 And then you would be handcuffed to that in addition to leg irons. 00:35:04.560 --> 00:35:07.600 So you were pretty secure leaving the leaving the prison. 00:35:08.441 --> 00:35:13.441 And she figured, and he was correct, that because of where the wounds were, 00:35:13.561 --> 00:35:16.921 they wouldn't put a chain on him in that area and handcuff him to the chain. 00:35:17.641 --> 00:35:21.941 So all he had was the leg irons, and those could be dealt with. He still had mobility. 00:35:22.261 --> 00:35:26.241 He had his hands free. He had his hands free so he could take hold of a gun 00:35:26.241 --> 00:35:28.921 that was smuggled in by his wife. 00:35:29.161 --> 00:35:32.661 That's a heck of a story, Daniel. This is great. You got to get this book. 00:35:32.841 --> 00:35:38.221 It really is a fascinating story. They become like Bonnie and Clyde on the run out there also. 00:35:38.441 --> 00:35:42.081 One of the state police officers who was interviewed at the time of the escape 00:35:42.081 --> 00:35:44.361 called him the Bonnie and Clyde of Massachusetts. 00:35:46.781 --> 00:35:51.561 That's such a common story as a woman helps a man escape from prison, 00:35:51.681 --> 00:35:55.901 go on the run, and then they hide out somewhere and eventually they get caught. 00:35:56.081 --> 00:35:57.741 But it's such a common story. 00:35:58.001 --> 00:36:02.001 You look at the subtitle on the book and it tells you that these two fell in 00:36:02.001 --> 00:36:07.121 love and she was willing to risk everything to be with him and to be with him 00:36:07.121 --> 00:36:08.201 on the outside of prison. 00:36:08.441 --> 00:36:12.601 And so they executed this escape, and they were gone for seven years until a 00:36:12.601 --> 00:36:15.901 gentleman named John Walsh on America's Most Walsh. 00:36:16.721 --> 00:36:21.601 Yeah, he came along, and he ruined Leroy Chasen's day. 00:36:22.941 --> 00:36:25.981 Leroy Chasen, he's not still alive, is he? 00:36:26.401 --> 00:36:32.041 No. As a result of that television show, the FBI got enough tips to locate him. 00:36:32.161 --> 00:36:34.701 He and his wife were living in downtown Denver. 00:36:35.361 --> 00:36:38.461 The FBI got enough tips to figure out where he was. 00:36:39.181 --> 00:36:43.221 And I'll leave the rest to the reader as to what took place. 00:36:43.461 --> 00:36:49.781 You know, it also begs the question, is a guy like this has spent his entire 00:36:49.781 --> 00:36:52.381 life in and out of penitentiaries and was out. 00:36:52.481 --> 00:36:55.841 He was just doing drugs and doing robberies and crimes. 00:36:56.101 --> 00:37:01.521 Yeah. But he's able to now spend seven years and not encounter the police. 00:37:01.521 --> 00:37:05.061 As a matter of fact, he and his wife were working while they were on the run. 00:37:05.281 --> 00:37:10.381 They made stops in New Hampshire, Chicago, Seattle, Kansas City, 00:37:10.701 --> 00:37:13.241 Las Vegas, until they finally reached Denver. 00:37:13.541 --> 00:37:19.001 And along the way, they would have stops in these cities, these locations, living in motels. 00:37:19.541 --> 00:37:23.161 And he was working at Mom and Pop Cafe as a dishwasher. 00:37:23.401 --> 00:37:28.521 And she was a nurse's aide by trade, and she would find jobs in that respect. 00:37:28.521 --> 00:37:33.641 And so they managed to earn enough money to stay on their feet. 00:37:33.841 --> 00:37:37.661 There were some crimes committed along the way, but they were described later 00:37:37.661 --> 00:37:42.941 on after it was all said and done as Teflon criminals because they always got away. 00:37:43.281 --> 00:37:45.641 The police would often let them go. 00:37:46.855 --> 00:37:50.395 They had no idea who they had. They had false names. Oh, yeah. 00:37:53.075 --> 00:37:56.495 When they did, they had an accomplice. Yeah. 00:37:56.735 --> 00:38:00.315 Oh, did they? When you get somebody in and you check your prints and, 00:38:00.315 --> 00:38:03.655 you know, their record locally and there's nothing. 00:38:03.675 --> 00:38:07.535 Well, unless, you know, unless it's really something, you may just release them 00:38:07.535 --> 00:38:12.175 on a recognizance or a city charge in a small bond or they go pay a bond. Yeah. 00:38:12.475 --> 00:38:15.855 You know, you got a $5,000 bond. You go pay a bond for that $1,000. bucks 00:38:15.855 --> 00:38:18.955 and and you know and walk i mean they actually had 00:38:18.955 --> 00:38:22.555 an account on a bar room and one of their hideouts where 00:38:22.555 --> 00:38:28.815 a gentleman was stabbed and that would trigger a lot more than a slap on the 00:38:28.815 --> 00:38:34.055 hand yeah but the other gentleman was also a criminal and didn't want to reveal 00:38:34.055 --> 00:38:38.775 that to the police so he didn't press charges yeah and the police let mr chason 00:38:38.775 --> 00:38:41.575 walk away he spent a couple 00:38:41.675 --> 00:38:47.915 days behind bars and off he went all right teflon the teflon everything just rolled off then, 00:38:50.095 --> 00:38:56.335 yep chasen chasen chasen i've got how's it i'll read all it is it chasen's run 00:38:56.335 --> 00:39:00.095 the prison break the captivated america and the love story that fueled it so 00:39:00.095 --> 00:39:04.635 guys i have links to that book down below i also have link to shots in the dark 00:39:04.635 --> 00:39:08.575 the saga of rocco bolero you'll be interested in both these books, guys. 00:39:10.837 --> 00:39:14.717 Thanks a lot, Daniel. Thanks a lot for coming on the show. Thank you. 00:39:14.857 --> 00:39:16.737 Oh, I appreciate it. Thank you for this opportunity. 00:39:17.397 --> 00:39:21.177 Okay. All right. You go ahead and just leave. I'll be in touch. 00:39:21.457 --> 00:39:24.617 When I get ready to put this up, when I put it up, I'll send you links. 00:39:24.697 --> 00:39:29.337 It's both the audio and the YouTube video. So I'll put it up. 00:39:29.857 --> 00:39:33.277 Okay. I appreciate it. Thanks very much, Gary. I visit Boston every once in 00:39:33.277 --> 00:39:37.017 a while. I have to look you up one of these times. I live down in Hingham. 00:39:37.537 --> 00:39:40.537 Okay. Yeah. I'm familiar with that. I'll be there a couple of times a year, 00:39:40.597 --> 00:39:42.917 not for very long, but I'll try to look you up. 00:39:43.177 --> 00:39:45.977 All right. Thanks a lot. Hangum is right next to Weymouth where some of this, 00:39:46.077 --> 00:39:48.477 I'm Quincy with it. A lot of this took place. So yeah, look me up. 00:39:48.597 --> 00:39:51.097 I'll take you to lunch in the North End. I'll give you a nice Italian meal. 00:39:51.317 --> 00:39:55.937 You know, I want to go up there. I did a story on Jello and the FBI investigation 00:39:55.937 --> 00:40:01.017 of putting that hidden microphone in the social club down there. It's a hell of a story. 00:40:01.257 --> 00:40:03.217 I want to go down there, see the North End. 00:40:03.697 --> 00:40:06.717 I've got, I'll give you a great tour. I'll show you all the sites. 00:40:07.177 --> 00:40:09.177 All right, buddy. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Bye. 00:40:10.077 --> 00:40:13.497 Don't forget, I like to ride motorcycles. So when you're out on the streets 00:40:13.497 --> 00:40:18.117 there and you're a big F-150, watch out for those little motorcycles when you're out. 00:40:18.297 --> 00:40:20.397 If you have a problem with PTSD and you've been in the service, 00:40:20.497 --> 00:40:21.957 be sure and go to the VA website. 00:40:22.257 --> 00:40:25.657 They'll help with your drugs and alcohol problem. If you've got that problem 00:40:25.657 --> 00:40:28.817 or gambling, if not, you can go to Anthony Ruggiano. 00:40:29.197 --> 00:40:33.617 He's a counselor down in Florida. He's got a hotline on his website. 00:40:33.717 --> 00:40:36.917 If you've got a problem with gambling, most states will have, 00:40:36.977 --> 00:40:41.077 if you have gambling, most states will have a hotline number to call. 00:40:41.257 --> 00:40:43.157 Just have to search around for it. 00:40:43.557 --> 00:40:47.877 You know, I've always got stuff to sell. I got my books. I got my movies. They're all on Amazon. 00:40:48.057 --> 00:40:52.397 Just go. And I got links down below in the show notes and just go to my Amazon 00:40:52.397 --> 00:40:56.077 sales page and you can figure out what to do. 00:40:56.277 --> 00:41:02.237 I really appreciate y'all tuning in and we'll keep coming back and doing this. Thanks, guys.