WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:03.017 Well, hey, welcome all you wiretappers out there. It's good to be back here 00:00:03.017 --> 00:00:04.177 in the studio of Gangland Wire. 00:00:04.357 --> 00:00:08.517 I have a story today and an interview, as you can see. 00:00:08.717 --> 00:00:14.717 My interviewee is Kurt Calabrese. Now, Kurt Calabrese is from Chicago and he 00:00:14.717 --> 00:00:17.637 grew up in a Chicago outfit family. 00:00:17.637 --> 00:00:21.737 Now, a lot of you guys know, if you're real mob aficionados, 00:00:22.097 --> 00:00:23.957 you know about the Family Secrets Trial. 00:00:24.297 --> 00:00:28.697 And his father, Kurt's father, was Frank Calabrese Sr., his brother, 00:00:28.937 --> 00:00:32.257 Frank Calabrese Jr., who we had on the show several years ago. 00:00:32.337 --> 00:00:34.337 One of my earliest interviews, actually. 00:00:35.517 --> 00:00:40.237 And then his uncle, Nick Calabrese, ended up going to Witness Protection Program. 00:00:40.237 --> 00:00:44.597 And so that's why they called it the Family Secrets Trial, because it was all 00:00:44.597 --> 00:00:48.177 centered around the Calabrese family. 00:00:48.417 --> 00:00:52.657 So I really look forward to talking to Kurt. And Kurt, welcome. 00:00:53.837 --> 00:00:58.817 Thank you, Gary. Thank you for having me. So, Kurt, we talked a little bit before the show. 00:00:58.997 --> 00:01:04.537 And, you know, what I found kind of fascinating in a way was partly not the 00:01:04.537 --> 00:01:07.537 mafia stuff particularly, but your childhood. 00:01:07.537 --> 00:01:12.737 You all grew up in this three-story or three, what'd you call it? 00:01:12.817 --> 00:01:14.617 A three-flat? Flat, yeah. 00:01:14.897 --> 00:01:20.877 Three-flat house where your father, mother, grandparents, your brother, 00:01:21.637 --> 00:01:26.537 you, your uncle, Nick, all lived in this same house. 00:01:27.437 --> 00:01:31.717 Now, tell us a little bit about what that was like. And you might talk about 00:01:31.717 --> 00:01:35.257 the neighborhood, too. So, you know, tell us a little bit about what that was like. 00:01:35.817 --> 00:01:39.937 Well, the house that we lived in, actually, my father had built. 00:01:40.397 --> 00:01:42.517 It's a three flat. It's three apartments. 00:01:43.017 --> 00:01:45.697 And he had a family room, a very 00:01:45.697 --> 00:01:51.177 big family room built onto the house also with a garage and a room in it. 00:01:51.817 --> 00:01:56.357 Very unique building that he had built. But he had it built for family. 00:01:57.077 --> 00:02:00.957 So we grew up there. We lived there almost our whole lives. 00:02:01.497 --> 00:02:05.057 And I was in a community called Elmwood Park. 00:02:05.257 --> 00:02:09.617 Which is a suburb right outside Chicago, in fact, right on the border of Chicago. 00:02:09.917 --> 00:02:15.317 A very quiet neighborhood, very, I'm not going to say ethnic, 00:02:15.497 --> 00:02:19.757 but a lot of Italian grew up there. A lot of different nationalities, 00:02:19.897 --> 00:02:21.897 but probably predominantly Italian. 00:02:21.937 --> 00:02:24.157 It was a very nice neighborhood to grow up in. 00:02:24.337 --> 00:02:27.497 Everybody knew each other, very closely knit neighborhood. 00:02:27.857 --> 00:02:30.517 One of those neighborhoods where you didn't have to lock your doors. 00:02:31.397 --> 00:02:35.197 A lot of things went on in that neighborhood. 00:02:35.357 --> 00:02:38.777 It was a very closely knit neighborhood, and I enjoyed it. 00:02:38.877 --> 00:02:43.677 I loved growing up where I grew up because I had a lot of friends that I grew 00:02:43.677 --> 00:02:45.457 up with, and there was a lot to do. 00:02:47.256 --> 00:02:52.516 Outside of the house, we had a pretty normal childhood as far as playing baseball 00:02:52.516 --> 00:02:57.196 and hanging out with our friends and going to school and played football and basketball. 00:02:57.196 --> 00:03:01.956 A lot of sports inside our home was a little bit different than it was in other people's homes, 00:03:01.996 --> 00:03:09.656 which I didn't realize until I wasn't a kid anymore when I realized that what 00:03:09.656 --> 00:03:12.536 went on in our house didn't go on in other homes. Interesting. 00:03:12.776 --> 00:03:18.716 Now, I've noticed that in Kansas City, our little Italy section and other cities, 00:03:18.716 --> 00:03:21.856 I see people talking about their neighborhoods, Italian neighborhoods. 00:03:22.716 --> 00:03:27.836 Back at one time, they were really safe. Nobody was going around breaking in 00:03:27.836 --> 00:03:31.896 houses, let alone robbing people on the streets. They were really safe because 00:03:31.896 --> 00:03:35.116 people took care of each other. They were out on the streets. 00:03:35.276 --> 00:03:38.516 They weren't hiding back in their homes all the time. They were out on the streets. 00:03:38.516 --> 00:03:40.456 Said, there's a stranger that came through there. 00:03:40.636 --> 00:03:43.956 You know, everybody had their eye on it. Believe me, I know it was a policeman 00:03:43.956 --> 00:03:46.656 working an Italian neighborhood, a Peckerwood policeman. 00:03:46.836 --> 00:03:50.316 You know, we call non-Italians or Peckerwoods down here. I don't know if you 00:03:50.316 --> 00:03:53.756 call non-Italians Peckerwoods up there, but they call us Peckerwoods. 00:03:53.856 --> 00:03:56.896 You see a Peckerwood driving through there, you give him the eye, 00:03:57.036 --> 00:03:59.336 like, who is that guy? Was it like that in your neighborhood? 00:03:59.576 --> 00:04:04.456 Yes, it was. It was, you knew, like I said, everybody kind of knew each other. 00:04:04.576 --> 00:04:08.836 And if somebody came into that neighborhood and didn't belong there or was doing 00:04:08.836 --> 00:04:11.776 something they shouldn't be doing, it was, you knew right away. 00:04:12.056 --> 00:04:15.416 You were, there were people out on the street all the time. And I mean, 00:04:15.476 --> 00:04:18.116 it was one of a few Italian neighborhoods. 00:04:18.296 --> 00:04:22.236 I mean, there were probably five or six very strong Italian neighborhoods in 00:04:22.236 --> 00:04:26.816 the Chicago and Chicagoland area that were, you know, predominantly Italian 00:04:26.816 --> 00:04:28.276 and Elwood Park being one of them. 00:04:28.376 --> 00:04:33.036 And not to mention that, uh, you know, there was a lot of mob guys that lived 00:04:33.036 --> 00:04:35.036 in our neighborhood So that, you know, 00:04:35.136 --> 00:04:39.456 that was something that made people feel safe back then in those neighborhoods, 00:04:39.536 --> 00:04:42.996 you know, and people still talk about that because, uh, you know, 00:04:43.056 --> 00:04:45.316 you don't really have neighborhoods like that anymore, unfortunately. 00:04:45.736 --> 00:04:51.996 Yeah. I have to ask in Kansas city, there was this deal started in Italian neighborhood. 00:04:52.016 --> 00:04:56.636 If you tied a red ribbon around your, uh, steering column, nobody would break 00:04:56.636 --> 00:04:58.876 into that car. Did you have anything like that? 00:04:59.136 --> 00:05:03.416 That warned people off? There was a mob car, Bob connected car. No, not really. 00:05:03.816 --> 00:05:05.916 I mean, you know, growing up a lot of, a lot of. 00:05:06.629 --> 00:05:09.909 Guys I grew up with and people in the neighborhood had, uh, horns hanging from 00:05:09.909 --> 00:05:15.969 their mirrors, uh, you know, the Italian horn, uh, which warded off evil and, you know, the evil eye. 00:05:16.109 --> 00:05:20.049 So, I mean, that, that was something that maybe could be considered similar, 00:05:20.049 --> 00:05:23.829 but a lot of, a lot of people that were Italian just had those hanging from their mirrors. 00:05:24.029 --> 00:05:26.249 So nothing like, like that, that I can remember. 00:05:26.909 --> 00:05:30.949 That was probably before my time. I saw one when I was a young police, 00:05:30.969 --> 00:05:34.789 but I saw when this guy got killed in his car, You know, I was overlooking at 00:05:34.789 --> 00:05:37.669 the car just out of curiosity. I was a street policeman still. 00:05:38.149 --> 00:05:42.449 There was a red ribbon around the steering column. So I thought, 00:05:42.549 --> 00:05:44.049 well, you know, that rumor is true. 00:05:44.289 --> 00:05:50.909 So growing up, your father and your Uncle Nicky are involved in this outfit business, shall we say. 00:05:51.249 --> 00:05:55.569 When did you first start to realize that there was something a little bit different? 00:05:55.789 --> 00:06:00.069 I know on The Sopranos, they did a whole show about the kids starting to realize 00:06:00.069 --> 00:06:03.309 that their dad was a little bit different than the other dads. 00:06:03.429 --> 00:06:04.929 When did you first notice that? 00:06:05.069 --> 00:06:09.109 It was grammar school, probably mid-grammar school. 00:06:09.129 --> 00:06:12.989 I started to, there were, you know, there was people talking and, 00:06:13.009 --> 00:06:16.709 you know, there was a story that was put in a newspaper. 00:06:17.209 --> 00:06:20.089 I think it was about sixth grade maybe. 00:06:20.409 --> 00:06:24.329 And it was on the front page of the newspaper was a picture of a house. 00:06:24.369 --> 00:06:28.729 And it was a story about, you know, organized crime, about the outfit. 00:06:28.949 --> 00:06:30.989 It was funny because that day. 00:06:31.700 --> 00:06:35.120 We didn't get the newspaper a lot in our house, but that day, 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:38.620 particular day, there was no newspapers around the area. 00:06:39.080 --> 00:06:42.940 So it was, you know, we weren't supposed to see that, but, um, 00:06:43.140 --> 00:06:47.020 and we didn't, I didn't see it personally. It was pointed out to me by some friends. 00:06:47.100 --> 00:06:51.280 So I guess it would be easier to say that my friends kind of caught on quicker 00:06:51.280 --> 00:06:53.040 than I did. You know, what was going on? 00:06:53.440 --> 00:06:56.340 Again, that was going on, but what, that our lives were different, 00:06:56.440 --> 00:06:59.020 that my father was different, that what he did was different, 00:06:59.020 --> 00:07:01.080 you know, because as kids, we were told. 00:07:01.080 --> 00:07:07.100 You know, he was a engineer that he was, uh, he was in the carpet business that, 00:07:07.340 --> 00:07:10.680 you know, things to, to say to people if we were ever asked. 00:07:11.140 --> 00:07:15.160 So, you know, the way we were raised with an iron fist, you know, 00:07:15.280 --> 00:07:18.740 we followed whatever we were told to say. 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:22.580 And so that's, you know, that's how we explained it when I get school, 00:07:22.700 --> 00:07:25.680 when your teacher would ask, what does your father do? Or your friends would 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:26.860 ask, what does your father do? 00:07:27.200 --> 00:07:30.840 You know, those were the answers that we were given to give people. 00:07:31.080 --> 00:07:34.760 It seems like I remember your brother, Frank, saying that he was an engineer 00:07:34.760 --> 00:07:39.100 and, and like, you know, he would tell that at school and they would say like 00:07:39.100 --> 00:07:42.480 a, like a train engineer and say, no, like just an engineer. 00:07:42.780 --> 00:07:46.480 Like he didn't really even know what that meant other than he was an engineer. 00:07:46.780 --> 00:07:49.920 Right. That's where it ended. It was, he was an engineer. We couldn't explain 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:51.160 it because we didn't know. 00:07:51.760 --> 00:07:54.660 So, you know, it was, you know, just an engineer. 00:07:54.860 --> 00:07:59.240 And when people ask, just an engineer, that's what he was. And for most people 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:02.380 in your community, that would probably be enough. 00:08:02.580 --> 00:08:04.580 They would say, okay, let's move on. 00:08:04.960 --> 00:08:10.280 It was for people. The teachers wanted more, but friends and parents, 00:08:10.420 --> 00:08:12.660 that was enough for them. That was enough. 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:18.480 You know, another thing I have noticed with mob families, and I find this fascinating 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:23.280 that you have, on one hand, now I worked a lot of criminals as a policeman, 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:26.800 but with mob guys, you have this family. 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.080 You have children at home, you have Christmases, you have Easter, 00:08:31.220 --> 00:08:34.520 you have the normal holidays, you give presents. 00:08:34.700 --> 00:08:38.260 But I've talked to some mob kids and they talked about all the, 00:08:38.400 --> 00:08:43.420 what they didn't realize at the time was all the swag that they would get in 00:08:43.420 --> 00:08:47.280 there and all the new stuff and boxes and some of the presents that would show 00:08:47.280 --> 00:08:49.080 up at Christmas time. Do you remember that? 00:08:49.400 --> 00:08:53.760 Was he bringing a lot of swag in for you guys as presents and to do things with? 00:08:53.760 --> 00:08:57.080 Yeah, not as much for the holidays, for Christmas and stuff, 00:08:57.240 --> 00:08:58.800 but there was always something in our house. 00:08:59.020 --> 00:09:03.580 There was always, like one time he came home with a box of hockey sticks. 00:09:04.100 --> 00:09:08.240 There was like 25 professional hockey sticks. 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:13.020 They were, you know, and we didn't think anything of it. I mean, we used them. Yeah. 00:09:13.580 --> 00:09:17.760 It was stuff like that. There was stuff that he would bring home in quantity. 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:21.420 And, you know, again, we just, it was kind of, 00:09:22.077 --> 00:09:26.577 It wasn't odd. It was kind of normal, but it was, if you go back to think of 00:09:26.577 --> 00:09:30.757 it now on, you tell people now, I mean, that's, you know, evidently this stuff 00:09:30.757 --> 00:09:33.097 was falling off the back of a truck somewhere. Yeah. 00:09:34.817 --> 00:09:40.197 Yeah. It fell off a truck. The great euphemism for having some stolen property. 00:09:40.277 --> 00:09:42.857 Oh, it just fell off a truck. Oh, okay. I'll take some. 00:09:43.537 --> 00:09:47.017 And what's different about us, Gary, is we weren't, we never asked. 00:09:47.017 --> 00:09:52.297 We were so, the discipline in our house was you really couldn't ask somebody, 00:09:52.477 --> 00:09:55.197 hey, dad, where'd you get these? Or, hey, dad, how did you get these? 00:09:55.377 --> 00:09:58.977 It was just, you just, you know, you just lived. 00:09:59.257 --> 00:10:04.297 You didn't ask questions about anything, especially if it was something that he was giving you. 00:10:04.457 --> 00:10:06.757 It wasn't like, you know, hey, where'd you get this? Or, you know, 00:10:06.817 --> 00:10:07.697 where did this come from? 00:10:07.817 --> 00:10:11.477 It was just happy to have it, you know, which I think is different, 00:10:11.757 --> 00:10:15.757 was different in our home than it was in a lot of other guys' homes that were 00:10:15.757 --> 00:10:20.517 part of that life. because, you know, my father wasn't, you really couldn't ask him anything. 00:10:20.677 --> 00:10:24.797 You really couldn't, couldn't really have a conversation with him about anything. 00:10:25.017 --> 00:10:27.497 Cause he just, you know, you couldn't ask questions. 00:10:27.757 --> 00:10:32.017 You couldn't, you just had to accept whatever was given you or whatever was 00:10:32.017 --> 00:10:34.517 told to you as an answer and you live with it. 00:10:34.777 --> 00:10:39.257 You deal with it. So that gets around to the, you know, next logical question 00:10:39.257 --> 00:10:41.837 is I believe he had a pretty violent temper. 00:10:42.117 --> 00:10:47.417 How did he express that in the home? Was it, I mean, out in the streets, he might kill somebody. 00:10:47.557 --> 00:10:50.897 He did kill several people in the home. He's not going to kill anybody, 00:10:50.897 --> 00:10:56.077 but did you see a lot of evidence of that violent temper or did he keep it under control at home? 00:10:56.437 --> 00:10:59.317 No, he, he was very violent in our house. 00:10:59.397 --> 00:11:04.537 He, he was, especially with me, he was very, very hands-on. He was very abusive. 00:11:05.037 --> 00:11:07.517 He was very, you know, he, he bullied me. 00:11:08.137 --> 00:11:15.437 He, he wanted you to fear him and he, he enjoyed that fear. when he knew that you feared him. 00:11:15.557 --> 00:11:18.277 And I literally shook around my dad. 00:11:18.577 --> 00:11:21.637 I literally shook. I mean, that's how he was with me. 00:11:21.757 --> 00:11:25.717 He was, you know, I mean, the beatings and the, you know, the abuse and the, 00:11:25.837 --> 00:11:31.317 you know, both physical and verbal, you know, that, that's how he was with me, especially. 00:11:31.677 --> 00:11:34.737 And, and I don't, you know, I can't really answer why, you know, 00:11:34.797 --> 00:11:37.137 people have asked me, Hey, why was your dad like that with you? 00:11:37.677 --> 00:11:40.857 You know, I mean, he brought it home with them. It was in our house. 00:11:41.497 --> 00:11:46.237 And, you know, again, at an early age, he, you know, he involved us in his life, 00:11:46.257 --> 00:11:48.777 you know, gradually at the beginning. 00:11:48.897 --> 00:11:52.997 But I mean, you know, and I, me personally, didn't want anything to do with that life. 00:11:53.997 --> 00:11:56.797 And reason being is I didn't want anything to do with my dad. 00:11:57.117 --> 00:12:00.257 I mean, he was my dad and I loved him and I respected him. 00:12:00.557 --> 00:12:06.037 And I, and I, you know, I was there with, for him, for anything he ever needed all the way till the end. 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:10.999 But I did not want to be part of anything he was part of because he just was 00:12:10.999 --> 00:12:15.019 the hardest person in the world to get along with. And he was he was abusive. 00:12:15.439 --> 00:12:20.079 And, you know, and again, you know, the why would you want to be around a world 00:12:20.079 --> 00:12:22.839 with someone who, you know, who's that way? 00:12:23.339 --> 00:12:26.979 You know, I mean, he could have been a postman or, you know, or whatever. 00:12:27.199 --> 00:12:30.399 And I and if he was that way, I make me not want to be around them. 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:36.839 And that's, you know, he used the term sad sack when he referred to me in code. 00:12:37.299 --> 00:12:42.059 And the reason being is because if you looked at me, I had that look on my face 00:12:42.059 --> 00:12:45.199 my whole life. I just did not want to be around him. 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:49.339 I feared him and I shook around him and he made me shake. 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:54.859 And again, for nothing, just for, that's just the way he was. 00:12:55.099 --> 00:12:59.899 And people, and once I saw people on the street act that way around him, 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.099 you know, and a lot of things started to make sense to me. 00:13:03.479 --> 00:13:08.719 Yeah. You probably knew you had to walk on eggshells is what I hear you're saying around him. 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:14.619 And that continually abuse, that continual fear, even though he wasn't going 00:13:14.619 --> 00:13:17.739 off at the present time, you never knew what was going to set him off. 00:13:18.099 --> 00:13:23.719 Right. And I guess one of your defenses was to just look down and be kind of 00:13:23.719 --> 00:13:29.499 downtrodden because you knew that was a way maybe to keep him from going off on you. 00:13:30.379 --> 00:13:33.339 Yeah, I would hope that it would, whatever, but it didn't. 00:13:33.459 --> 00:13:36.959 I mean, when I, whenever I put my head down or I had that look on my face, 00:13:37.059 --> 00:13:40.639 he would, he would point it out and he would, he almost made fun of it. 00:13:40.939 --> 00:13:43.279 You know, that's how, that's how the sad sack came up. I mean, 00:13:43.299 --> 00:13:45.599 it was like a joke, you know, look, look at him. 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:48.419 He's, you know, it was always looks like a mope or always looks like, 00:13:48.779 --> 00:13:51.999 you know, the look on his face is like, he's not happy. Well, I wasn't happy. 00:13:52.339 --> 00:13:55.639 I mean, it was, I didn't have a good poker face. So, and, and, 00:13:55.699 --> 00:14:00.699 and Gary, what you got to understand is this didn't happen occasionally. This was every day. 00:14:01.179 --> 00:14:05.799 This was part of my life every day. This wasn't an occasional him getting mad 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:08.979 or him an occasional, you know, going, you know, going off on me. 00:14:09.259 --> 00:14:13.519 This, this way he was in walking on eggshells was every day. 00:14:14.319 --> 00:14:17.679 And it was, and that's what I, what, what I want people to try to understand. 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:22.659 And that's what I talk about in, you know, in, in my, uh, in the podcast is, 00:14:23.079 --> 00:14:26.179 is, you know, this was every day. This wasn't a portion of my life. 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:28.559 This wasn't, uh, this was every day. 00:14:28.979 --> 00:14:32.059 And, and, you know, it's had, it's, it has its effect on me. 00:14:32.179 --> 00:14:35.239 It's had its effect. I mean, it's still, still till this day. 00:14:35.379 --> 00:14:36.579 I mean, it's never going to go away. 00:14:37.535 --> 00:14:40.175 I believe it. Matter of fact, we've been a little bit remiss. 00:14:40.275 --> 00:14:41.515 We should have brought this up earlier. 00:14:41.735 --> 00:14:47.295 Kurt is now part of a ongoing, I don't know, eight, eight, eight, 00:14:47.955 --> 00:14:53.835 eight series of podcasts called underbelly killing Kurt, which is part of a 00:14:53.835 --> 00:14:59.915 larger podcast, a professional ran by a company, if you will, a podcast. 00:15:00.275 --> 00:15:04.035 And so they're in the middle of that right now. You've got a couple more episodes, 00:15:04.075 --> 00:15:06.295 I think, come out, and then you're going to do some wrap up. 00:15:06.295 --> 00:15:09.275 He even mentioned it, guys, to give you a little teaser on this podcast, 00:15:09.275 --> 00:15:11.635 you got to start listening to it. 00:15:11.775 --> 00:15:14.055 It's good. I've listened to some of them myself. 00:15:14.355 --> 00:15:17.935 And at the end, Kurt said he gave me a little teaser. 00:15:18.075 --> 00:15:22.935 They might release some audio of his Uncle Nicky Calabrese at the end. 00:15:23.015 --> 00:15:27.995 Now, we don't know for sure, and he's not committing to me, but that's a little teaser. 00:15:28.135 --> 00:15:32.455 You might get a little of the actual voice of Nicky, his Uncle Nicky Calabrese. 00:15:32.455 --> 00:15:36.375 Because if you remember, a lot of you guys are real aficionados, 00:15:36.575 --> 00:15:43.995 but after the skimming from Las Vegas trials took out, Angelo LaPietra, Iupa. 00:15:44.795 --> 00:15:49.415 Jackie Cerrone took out these high echelon guys. 00:15:49.415 --> 00:15:54.215 The next one was a family secrets trial in which his Uncle Mickey testified 00:15:54.215 --> 00:16:01.275 and his brother Frank testified and took down his dad's crew for all these murders and also took down, 00:16:01.455 --> 00:16:04.995 I believe, Jimmy Marcello for the Spalatro brothers, 00:16:05.235 --> 00:16:07.235 which was kind of the next boss. 00:16:07.375 --> 00:16:12.375 I mean, it really, between those two prosecutions, just about decimated the Chicago outfit. 00:16:12.575 --> 00:16:15.375 Wouldn't you agree, Kirk? Oh, yes. Yes, definitely. 00:16:16.515 --> 00:16:21.655 Had to be a really tense time. I guess your dad was in jail during the trial. 00:16:21.815 --> 00:16:24.615 But you're talking about your dad. Now, 00:16:25.035 --> 00:16:30.615 when he realized that maybe there was something going on, you know, 00:16:30.675 --> 00:16:34.555 he saw surveillance on himself or he knew people were asking, 00:16:34.835 --> 00:16:37.915 FBI agents were asking questions in places that they shouldn't be, 00:16:38.115 --> 00:16:41.755 that, you know, people that really might know something to hurt him. 00:16:41.875 --> 00:16:43.595 Did he get even more tense then? 00:16:43.775 --> 00:16:46.255 Was there a lot more anger? What was his life? 00:16:46.495 --> 00:16:52.055 I always wondered, does it ever bother him that we, as law enforcement, are after him? 00:16:52.175 --> 00:16:54.695 Does it ever bother him at all? They never acted like it. 00:16:55.620 --> 00:16:58.300 You know what he was he taught us at a 00:16:58.300 --> 00:17:01.360 young age to always be respectful to to 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:04.520 everyone including law enforcement um never 00:17:04.520 --> 00:17:09.560 never give anybody a reason to you know to have a problem with you uh so he 00:17:09.560 --> 00:17:16.600 you know he was he was always the same way he was with people especially strangers 00:17:16.600 --> 00:17:20.920 especially people he didn't know and he was very even keel he was you know he 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:23.160 didn't get excited I did when, 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:27.320 when stuff was going on and, and a lot of stuff was going on at that time. 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:34.400 Um, yeah, he, he was very, uh, you know, he, he, he was very edgy. 00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:40.020 He was very easy to, to get mad. I mean, but, but again, to me, that was everyday life. 00:17:40.180 --> 00:17:43.620 So it wasn't, it wasn't different to me, but people, you know, 00:17:43.760 --> 00:17:47.180 outside of his family, you know, noticed it, recognized it. 00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:51.900 And, um, you know, I, I, I don't know. I think you're probably aware of, 00:17:52.020 --> 00:17:55.420 I mean, during the family secrets trial, you know, my family was threatened. 00:17:55.660 --> 00:17:59.180 You know, I, I, my life was threatened. There was a, there was a fake bomb put 00:17:59.180 --> 00:18:03.740 on my porch at my home, uh, on the day of the jury selection for that case. 00:18:04.140 --> 00:18:09.080 There was, uh, rats put on my doorstep previously to that, um, 00:18:09.320 --> 00:18:11.660 two white rats with nooses around their necks. 00:18:12.180 --> 00:18:16.620 Um, so I, my life was a lot different than the stories you're going to read 00:18:16.620 --> 00:18:17.940 in the family secrets books. 00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:20.740 And, you know, that's one of the reasons why I did this podcast, 00:18:20.820 --> 00:18:23.820 because I wanted to be able to explain to people what I went through, 00:18:23.980 --> 00:18:28.700 what my family went through because of my father, because of the life that he 00:18:28.700 --> 00:18:31.120 chose for himself and for us. 00:18:31.360 --> 00:18:36.040 You know, and that's where I think that's a little bit more unique for people, 00:18:36.040 --> 00:18:38.100 because I actually dealt with that stuff. 00:18:38.280 --> 00:18:42.360 I mean, it didn't happen to anyone else. It happened to me and I didn't cooperate. Yeah. 00:18:42.675 --> 00:18:47.495 I refused to cooperate. I refused to talk. That's one of the reasons why, 00:18:47.495 --> 00:18:52.175 you know, I'm speaking my piece now and doing the podcast. 00:18:52.355 --> 00:18:56.655 And when and the name of it, Killing Kurt, I mean, this story is killing me. 00:18:57.095 --> 00:19:02.475 It's it's it's taken its toll on me, you know, especially since I came home from prison. 00:19:02.655 --> 00:19:07.875 You know, I did two years in prison. I made a deal, cut a deal and pled out 00:19:07.875 --> 00:19:11.275 so that my family could get their deals. 00:19:11.935 --> 00:19:15.235 The government hinged my deal, their deals on my deal. 00:19:15.615 --> 00:19:20.135 My father, my uncle, and my brother had negotiated pleas, but they wouldn't 00:19:20.135 --> 00:19:22.615 accept them unless I agreed to plead out too. 00:19:23.355 --> 00:19:28.255 And unfortunately, had I had my day in court and I was able to get severed from 00:19:28.255 --> 00:19:33.895 the case, I think I would have won my case because I wasn't charged with the 00:19:33.895 --> 00:19:35.335 same things that they were charged with. 00:19:35.515 --> 00:19:39.435 Even though I was part of that life and I wasn't charged with any of this stuff 00:19:39.435 --> 00:19:41.795 because there was no evidence to charge me. 00:19:42.255 --> 00:19:46.495 To me, it's unique and it's different than a lot of stuff people have done. 00:19:46.635 --> 00:19:50.415 And my story is different and it just needed to be told. 00:19:50.715 --> 00:19:54.135 It is killing me and it's had its effect on me. 00:19:54.255 --> 00:19:59.815 And I suffer from complex PTSD because of the life I've lived, 00:20:00.075 --> 00:20:02.515 according to the doctors, and it's getting worse. 00:20:02.935 --> 00:20:09.075 And there is something for me being able to tell my story. 00:20:09.435 --> 00:20:12.535 It, it, it may not give me closure that I hoped it would give me, 00:20:12.635 --> 00:20:17.175 but it does give me some peace for people to understand what I've lived and 00:20:17.175 --> 00:20:19.535 why I am the way I am because of how I lived. 00:20:20.895 --> 00:20:25.375 Interesting. Yeah. And, and I think a lot of people don't understand in, 00:20:25.435 --> 00:20:29.075 in these tight communities like, 00:20:29.685 --> 00:20:34.045 the outfit community family, the extended family bears. 00:20:34.365 --> 00:20:38.265 If somebody that's, that's why we've never had anybody go into witness protection 00:20:38.265 --> 00:20:43.805 and really testify here in Kansas city, because it's so hard on the extended family. 00:20:44.065 --> 00:20:50.265 And, and it's such a small community that you can't go anywhere without running into somebody else. 00:20:50.365 --> 00:20:54.705 Now, Chicago is a little bit bigger, but you still lived in a really small community. 00:20:54.945 --> 00:20:59.205 So you go to some, some friend's wedding or some friends, you know, 00:20:59.325 --> 00:21:02.585 go to church or, or just your restaurant that you would normally go to. 00:21:02.805 --> 00:21:06.265 There's some of these mob guys, and now they're painting you with the brush 00:21:06.265 --> 00:21:08.605 of being a rat. Is that what you experienced? 00:21:08.985 --> 00:21:12.005 That's exactly what I've experienced. And it's, you know, I, 00:21:12.105 --> 00:21:16.585 when, when all this happened, uh, you know, people automatically think that 00:21:16.585 --> 00:21:18.525 you're part of what's going on. 00:21:18.645 --> 00:21:22.585 And if you don't come out and say, Hey, I had nothing to do with this, 00:21:22.685 --> 00:21:24.805 or I have nothing to do with this person. 00:21:25.125 --> 00:21:29.065 Um, then, then they start to understand it. And when proof, when, 00:21:29.165 --> 00:21:32.245 when everything comes out, they can see it. But I never did that, Gary. 00:21:32.385 --> 00:21:35.645 I never went out and said, Hey, I got nothing to do with my brother. 00:21:35.825 --> 00:21:37.325 I have nothing to do with my uncle. 00:21:37.605 --> 00:21:41.865 You know, I don't agree with what they did and I wouldn't do it, 00:21:41.885 --> 00:21:45.825 but I never, I never, you know, I never threw him under the bus or said, 00:21:45.825 --> 00:21:48.085 Hey, I, you know, I don't, I've got nothing to do with them. 00:21:48.625 --> 00:21:53.385 Unfortunately, I had to start being more honest about what Frank Jr. 00:21:53.625 --> 00:21:59.185 Has done because unfortunately he has a tendency of, of lying and telling stories 00:21:59.185 --> 00:22:05.945 that aren't true or accurate just to supplement his, his, his story or what he's created. 00:22:06.125 --> 00:22:09.025 And it's, it's, you know, unfortunately my brother's dead to me. 00:22:09.285 --> 00:22:13.885 It has to be that way because, yeah. And I'm not proud to say that or happy 00:22:13.885 --> 00:22:17.985 to say that because I was as close to my brother as I was to anybody in my life. 00:22:18.165 --> 00:22:23.145 When I asked him to stop lying and just tell the truth of how what really went on... 00:22:23.645 --> 00:22:27.185 He wouldn't do it. You know, there were things that he put me in the middle 00:22:27.185 --> 00:22:31.405 of, you know, when he decided to cooperate, you know, I didn't judge him and 00:22:31.405 --> 00:22:34.625 I didn't, I didn't, I didn't agree with what he did, but I didn't judge him. 00:22:34.885 --> 00:22:39.905 But he, you know, he, he packed up and he ran away and left me and our whole 00:22:39.905 --> 00:22:42.205 family there to deal with the mess that he created. 00:22:42.865 --> 00:22:47.365 And, and he didn't seem to care about the people that he hurt by doing what he did. 00:22:47.465 --> 00:22:52.365 And I don't mean the outfit. I'm talking about family members on both sides 00:22:52.365 --> 00:22:54.145 of my family, on my mother's side. 00:22:54.345 --> 00:22:58.065 You know, he, he hurt a lot of people with things that he talked about that 00:22:58.065 --> 00:23:01.825 really had nothing to do with the mob, had nothing to do with the outfit. 00:23:02.025 --> 00:23:05.985 It was more family stuff. And, and, you know, it's, it's offensive because. 00:23:06.425 --> 00:23:09.245 You know, people come up to me and say, well, why did Junior talk about, 00:23:09.385 --> 00:23:11.805 why did he bring me into the book? Why did he talk about me? 00:23:12.225 --> 00:23:15.265 I can't answer that question. But at some point I had to say, 00:23:15.345 --> 00:23:17.305 listen, this had nothing to do with me. 00:23:17.425 --> 00:23:20.245 I had nothing to do with this. I wanted nothing to do with this. 00:23:20.405 --> 00:23:26.105 I remained loyal to myself because I never believed in doing that. 00:23:26.245 --> 00:23:31.905 I never believed in cooperating or telling on people or, you know, I just, I don't know. 00:23:32.265 --> 00:23:36.525 And all the way till the end. I mean, I claimed my father's body when nobody 00:23:36.525 --> 00:23:40.965 would go out there to claim it just because, you know, for my own selfish reasons. 00:23:41.105 --> 00:23:42.505 But I needed to see this man dead. 00:23:42.865 --> 00:23:46.945 I needed to know that he was actually dead because he haunted me. 00:23:46.945 --> 00:23:50.545 I mean, he, you know, in some ways he still does, but I can't, 00:23:50.585 --> 00:23:51.805 you know, I can't fix that. 00:23:51.925 --> 00:23:57.105 And it's never going to get fixed overnight, but it is what I live every day. And it's different. 00:23:57.325 --> 00:24:00.565 What I live every day is different than what these other people live every day. 00:24:00.685 --> 00:24:03.605 It's different from what Junior lives every day. And everybody's got their, 00:24:03.745 --> 00:24:06.565 their issues and, and, and things that have happened. 00:24:06.765 --> 00:24:10.985 But I, you know, I needed to, to tell the truth. I needed to tell the story. 00:24:11.165 --> 00:24:15.145 I needed to tell it accurately because a lot of lies have been told and it's 00:24:15.145 --> 00:24:18.045 offensive. and it's killing me. 00:24:19.065 --> 00:24:24.065 I can only imagine the pressure that the FBI and the U.S. Attorney's Office 00:24:24.065 --> 00:24:26.325 brought to bear on you as... 00:24:27.507 --> 00:24:30.507 They started taking down this whole family secrets thing. 00:24:30.667 --> 00:24:35.047 It got, it got the son, they got the brother and now they got, 00:24:35.187 --> 00:24:38.827 then you're out there and you were close enough that you might know some, 00:24:38.887 --> 00:24:42.887 I bet that, I bet they grilled you. I bet they threatened you with everything. 00:24:43.347 --> 00:24:47.107 They did. Talk about that a little bit, what that was like. 00:24:47.307 --> 00:24:51.707 Well, they, they first threatened for first, according to my uncle, 00:24:51.727 --> 00:24:56.247 um, the deal that he made with them was for them to leave me alone. 00:24:57.087 --> 00:25:01.807 And he even went as far as telling them when they went to see him, 00:25:02.447 --> 00:25:05.307 um, that they were going to see his nephew next. 00:25:05.787 --> 00:25:10.267 And he said to them, which it's how it's my uncle. 00:25:10.407 --> 00:25:13.747 It's my relationship with my uncle. I'm proud of how, what my uncle thought 00:25:13.747 --> 00:25:19.747 of me, but he kind of, he kind of, it kind of hurt me because it, it made a problem for me. 00:25:19.867 --> 00:25:22.347 He told the FBI, don't go see Kurt. 00:25:22.487 --> 00:25:27.347 Cause Kurt won't talk to you. So they didn't want to hear that. They didn't like that. 00:25:27.887 --> 00:25:32.127 I'm sure it made them even have a bigger problem with me. 00:25:32.427 --> 00:25:37.927 But they told my lawyer, we want to talk to Kurt. 00:25:38.147 --> 00:25:41.047 And my lawyer told him straight out, Kurt won't talk to you. 00:25:41.107 --> 00:25:44.947 And they said, well, we've got immunity already for him. 00:25:45.107 --> 00:25:47.487 If we subpoena him, we already have the immunity. 00:25:47.767 --> 00:25:53.407 And if he doesn't testify, we're going to lock him up. And my lawyer told him, go right ahead. 00:25:53.647 --> 00:25:57.027 He's not going to talk to you. And he told him straight out, 00:25:57.127 --> 00:26:01.007 if you lock this kid up, this kid wants nothing to do with this life anymore. 00:26:01.107 --> 00:26:03.467 He wants nothing to do with his father. 00:26:03.747 --> 00:26:07.087 He wants nothing to do with what's going on here. He just wants to be left alone. 00:26:07.227 --> 00:26:11.667 If you go ahead and subpoena him, we will go to the newspaper and we will let 00:26:11.667 --> 00:26:16.167 them know that, you know, this kid went and did his time. I did my time. I came home. 00:26:16.347 --> 00:26:19.407 I wanted to be left alone. I wanted nothing to do with either side. 00:26:19.407 --> 00:26:24.627 And they kind of backed off But then my father subpoenaed me. 00:26:25.617 --> 00:26:29.377 My father had the nerve to actually subpoena me and put me on a stand. 00:26:29.637 --> 00:26:33.357 I mean, he pointed me out during the family secrets trial. And I was sitting 00:26:33.357 --> 00:26:35.777 in a watching like everyone else. 00:26:35.917 --> 00:26:39.777 He pointed me out. He subpoenaed me right outside the courtroom. 00:26:41.077 --> 00:26:46.397 And it was a mind game that my father played with me. He did that to me my whole life. 00:26:46.557 --> 00:26:51.237 Same with the threat, the threatening letters I got, the threats. They all came from him. 00:26:51.757 --> 00:26:55.097 They were all his way. I don't know why, but they were all his way of, 00:26:55.097 --> 00:27:00.977 of playing a mind game with me, either trying to scare me or scare me more than I was already scared. 00:27:01.397 --> 00:27:04.037 But he, you know, he played those games with me and the government, 00:27:04.297 --> 00:27:10.697 you know, I ended up when the, when my father was going to sentencing, I was, uh, 00:27:11.417 --> 00:27:14.697 government got ahold of my lawyer and said, listen, uh, they had already locked 00:27:14.697 --> 00:27:17.777 him down and it was called the Sam's measure. 00:27:17.997 --> 00:27:20.917 Uh, they locked him down like a terrorist. And at that point, 00:27:21.037 --> 00:27:25.477 they can decide who you can see and who you can't see, who can visit you, who you can talk to. 00:27:25.757 --> 00:27:28.257 And so the government got ahold of my lawyer and said, listen, 00:27:28.337 --> 00:27:32.557 if Kurt ever wants to talk to his father again or say anything to his dad, 00:27:32.717 --> 00:27:34.637 he's going to have to do it at the sentencing. 00:27:35.357 --> 00:27:39.717 Well, I didn't, you know, Gary, I didn't really get why they wanted me at the sentencing. 00:27:40.077 --> 00:27:45.717 I thought about it. I didn't tell anybody what I was doing. I wrote something out. 00:27:46.037 --> 00:27:49.837 I thought about it. I didn't decide till the morning of the sentencing that 00:27:49.837 --> 00:27:51.597 I was going to actually speak. 00:27:52.297 --> 00:27:55.537 And that's because I didn't want anybody to know I was going to do it. 00:27:55.597 --> 00:27:57.837 I didn't want it to be a circus and courtroom. 00:27:58.577 --> 00:28:01.957 So I decided the last minute to go in there. Well, they put me in the, 00:28:01.957 --> 00:28:07.617 in the road with the victims families and the FBI saw me sitting in the room. 00:28:07.757 --> 00:28:12.337 They, they had known now that I was going to speak and I didn't understand exactly 00:28:12.337 --> 00:28:17.657 why they wanted me there until I started speaking. And the only person who can 00:28:17.657 --> 00:28:21.597 get my father to lose it was me. 00:28:22.157 --> 00:28:27.717 For some reason, whatever the reason is with me, he just lost it. 00:28:27.857 --> 00:28:32.197 And so when I got up to speak, which I had second thoughts about doing, 00:28:32.417 --> 00:28:35.517 and I, again, I didn't realize why they wanted me in the courtroom. 00:28:35.697 --> 00:28:41.177 But once I started to speak, my father lost it. And I, I, I figured out that 00:28:41.177 --> 00:28:46.817 at that point, the government wanted, wanted my father to lose it in court and 00:28:46.817 --> 00:28:49.457 wanted the judge to see it. And he wanted the, the, uh. 00:28:50.454 --> 00:28:54.074 The jury to see it. And sure enough, they got to see it. 00:28:54.154 --> 00:28:58.574 And that's when I realized why they invited me into the court that day was for 00:28:58.574 --> 00:29:02.754 them, for the judge to see my father actually lose his temper. 00:29:03.014 --> 00:29:07.254 Like they kept claiming he did his whole life and he claimed he didn't. 00:29:07.314 --> 00:29:09.534 Well, he lost it when I started to speak. 00:29:09.654 --> 00:29:12.034 So they got what they wanted out of it. 00:29:12.174 --> 00:29:15.454 I didn't even get a chance to finish my statement because he cut me off. 00:29:15.854 --> 00:29:20.994 So, you know, it was my way of saying, yeah, normally I would never have done something that way. 00:29:21.074 --> 00:29:25.874 I didn't want to do that, but I, I, I wanted to be able to say what I needed to say. 00:29:25.954 --> 00:29:29.614 I didn't want to do it in front of anyone. I wanted to do with him alone, 00:29:29.614 --> 00:29:32.294 but I wasn't, I was told I was never going to get that opportunity. 00:29:32.754 --> 00:29:37.474 So I chose to do that. Um, it's something that I, I probably shouldn't have done. 00:29:37.754 --> 00:29:40.354 I wouldn't have done it. You know, if I had thought about it, 00:29:40.514 --> 00:29:44.554 I probably wouldn't have done it, but I got to say some of the things that I 00:29:44.554 --> 00:29:46.454 wanted to say and get them off my chest. 00:29:46.694 --> 00:29:49.574 And I just, I, you know, he wasn't very happy and And he, you know, 00:29:49.694 --> 00:29:52.434 he basically tried to come after me, come at me in the courtroom. 00:29:52.794 --> 00:29:57.974 Now, you said you did a couple of years. Now, what did he suck you into something 00:29:57.974 --> 00:30:00.534 that wasn't for not refusing to testify? 00:30:00.894 --> 00:30:05.414 Did he pull you into something that make dirty you up a little bit where they can make a case on you? 00:30:05.714 --> 00:30:11.074 Well, there were two. Our original case that we went away to prison for. 00:30:11.854 --> 00:30:16.194 That's what I went away for. I, I, my charges originally were conspiracy, 00:30:16.434 --> 00:30:21.354 conspiracy to defraud the IRS and some mail fraud counts. But they, 00:30:21.494 --> 00:30:25.654 when I pled out, I pled out to conspiracy to defraud the IRS. 00:30:26.154 --> 00:30:31.554 And, um, that, that was a charge I should have never gotten because there was 00:30:31.554 --> 00:30:36.654 nothing there on a case that, that had me guilty of anything there. 00:30:36.794 --> 00:30:41.154 Uh, but it was, you know, it was there when they come to you with a plea, 00:30:41.294 --> 00:30:44.674 you plead out to what they tell you. Cause I offered to plead out the perjury. 00:30:45.458 --> 00:30:52.678 Cause I, I lied during, uh, depositions, uh, in our first case about money that 00:30:52.678 --> 00:30:55.078 belonged to my dad and, and properties. 00:30:55.138 --> 00:30:59.158 And, you know, I, I claimed that was all my stuff and, you know, 00:30:59.198 --> 00:31:03.318 I perjured myself, but I, but you know, when I got charged, if he had, 00:31:03.418 --> 00:31:07.658 had that case went to trial, uh, I would have never gotten charged. 00:31:08.158 --> 00:31:12.378 Uh, I, I most likely would have beat him in court because that's how weak their 00:31:12.378 --> 00:31:13.418 evidence was against me. 00:31:13.418 --> 00:31:17.678 But they wanted me, you know, there was a time, Gary, in our first case where, 00:31:17.678 --> 00:31:22.658 uh, when we got arrested, you know, they, they pulled my father in a room and 00:31:22.658 --> 00:31:27.018 my brother and I were sitting in a room across the hallway with the door open. It was all staged. 00:31:27.398 --> 00:31:31.338 And my dad was in a room across the hall and they told my dad point blank, 00:31:31.338 --> 00:31:36.238 if you agree to take responsibility for what's happened here, 00:31:36.338 --> 00:31:40.978 not plea, not, not rat on anybody or not telling anybody, just take responsibility. 00:31:40.978 --> 00:31:43.498 Billy, we'll let your kids walk out the door right now. 00:31:43.898 --> 00:31:48.518 And my father said to them, I'm not worried. Both of my kids are men. 00:31:49.138 --> 00:31:51.458 So at that point, I thought I was, 00:31:51.698 --> 00:31:54.478 I thought I finally earned my father's respect when he said that to me. 00:31:54.538 --> 00:31:59.218 I was, you know, I was so messed up mentally at that point that I thought that 00:31:59.218 --> 00:32:04.118 was a huge compliment my father gave me, but he had the opportunity to get us out of the case. 00:32:04.218 --> 00:32:09.698 And I think the government expected him to accept that and the case would have 00:32:09.698 --> 00:32:13.118 ended right there, but he didn't, he would not, he would not do it. 00:32:13.238 --> 00:32:14.498 He didn't even think about it. 00:32:14.638 --> 00:32:17.798 He didn't even take a second to think about it. He just basically said that 00:32:17.798 --> 00:32:20.378 I'm, I'm not worried. Both my, my boys are men. 00:32:20.738 --> 00:32:25.258 And so, you know, that's the kind of person my father was. My father was about himself. 00:32:25.698 --> 00:32:28.818 My father was, listen, my father was very good at what he did. 00:32:29.378 --> 00:32:30.898 Okay. Very good at what he did. 00:32:31.798 --> 00:32:35.038 He was just a horrible father. He was, he was on the street. 00:32:35.038 --> 00:32:36.718 He was respected. He was feared. 00:32:37.138 --> 00:32:41.158 You know, he was very good at what he did. And even the government didn't know 00:32:41.158 --> 00:32:43.998 what he was doing until my uncle cooperated. 00:32:44.218 --> 00:32:47.958 They had no idea that my father and uncle were both part of all those murders. 00:32:48.538 --> 00:32:53.578 They had no idea, which, you know, is their job to find that out. 00:32:55.138 --> 00:32:58.538 You know, they had no idea. In fact, in fact, so much, Gary, 00:32:58.638 --> 00:33:01.258 that they didn't believe my uncle. When he first started cooperating, 00:33:01.358 --> 00:33:01.898 they didn't believe him. 00:33:02.418 --> 00:33:05.378 Really? The point where he got frustrated and he said, okay, 00:33:05.518 --> 00:33:08.178 fine. He said, I'm done. Let me out. Let me get, get me out of the room. 00:33:08.478 --> 00:33:12.518 Cause they were like, no, no, we got information that that's somebody else. He said. 00:33:13.465 --> 00:33:17.845 You know, the stuff he gave them and he was so, my uncle was so particular and 00:33:17.845 --> 00:33:22.785 his mind was so sharp that he remembered things that nobody would have remembered. 00:33:23.185 --> 00:33:26.965 So he was so accurate when he described things, that's when they started realizing 00:33:26.965 --> 00:33:31.985 these guys were part of, you know, very serious part of what was going on. Really? 00:33:33.045 --> 00:33:37.905 Those little details from a crime scene that were never made public. 00:33:37.905 --> 00:33:41.805 Like, see, when a guy comes to you and he can give you those little details, 00:33:41.805 --> 00:33:46.165 you look back at the crime scene photos or the, you know, the description of 00:33:46.165 --> 00:33:48.625 the crime scene and you say, oh, man, this guy knows. 00:33:48.965 --> 00:33:52.145 And he was able to do that, it sounds like. Yes. Oh, yeah. 00:33:52.345 --> 00:33:58.085 And to point to, like I said, it confused them because who has a mind like that 00:33:58.085 --> 00:34:03.305 could remember all that stuff to detail like that. But that's how my uncle's mind was. 00:34:03.405 --> 00:34:07.725 I mean, he was, you know, and again, my uncle was a stand-up guy. 00:34:07.905 --> 00:34:14.145 Uh, you know, I, I had my, had junior not did what he did, my uncle would have never cooperated. 00:34:14.705 --> 00:34:18.585 I mean, he would have died in prison. He had no, you know, no, 00:34:18.705 --> 00:34:21.265 no ideas or thoughts to do that. 00:34:21.665 --> 00:34:27.325 And it broke his heart. Man, you know, people don't realize what it did to my uncle. 00:34:27.465 --> 00:34:31.565 I mean, he, you know, he, he couldn't live with himself with, with how, what he did. 00:34:32.185 --> 00:34:37.245 Now he was a loyal, loyal soldier, my uncle. And, you know, unfortunately, 00:34:37.245 --> 00:34:39.725 my father didn't do the right thing with him either. 00:34:39.885 --> 00:34:42.605 He didn't do the right thing with anybody. My father, he didn't, 00:34:42.665 --> 00:34:44.005 he treated everybody that way. 00:34:45.585 --> 00:34:49.765 It seemed to me like everybody was disposable in his world. 00:34:50.005 --> 00:34:53.985 Everybody's disposable in order to protect him. No matter what you're disposable. 00:34:55.730 --> 00:34:59.230 And we all did protect him. I mean, we, we were willing, we were all willing. 00:34:59.310 --> 00:35:01.030 There was a time when my father was going to leave. 00:35:02.090 --> 00:35:05.110 In fact, it's in the, it's in the podcast. There was a time when my father was 00:35:05.110 --> 00:35:07.410 going to run, run away and go in hiding. 00:35:08.030 --> 00:35:12.610 Um, because of, uh, uh, Joe Bonanno did that years ago. Yeah. 00:35:12.830 --> 00:35:15.410 I remember he, yeah. Where he claimed that they were going to kill him. 00:35:15.530 --> 00:35:16.730 So he was afraid of his life. 00:35:16.770 --> 00:35:22.230 Well, my father was going to do that. And I was working with him to, to try to do that. 00:35:22.230 --> 00:35:25.730 And uh you know he got mad because when 00:35:25.730 --> 00:35:28.730 he said he was going to do it and he was going to disappear he wanted 00:35:28.730 --> 00:35:31.970 us to be upset that he was going to leave and 00:35:31.970 --> 00:35:35.650 we were all saying go you're like all right go 00:35:35.650 --> 00:35:38.450 let me help you right we did we were 00:35:38.450 --> 00:35:41.370 helping him and he said you know what's going 00:35:41.370 --> 00:35:44.530 to happen is when i disappear they're going to arrest you guys immediately and 00:35:44.530 --> 00:35:47.410 we said fine fine just to let 00:35:47.410 --> 00:35:50.450 him go just to get rid of him just to let him you know 00:35:50.450 --> 00:35:53.210 because we we had no life the three of us 00:35:53.210 --> 00:35:56.770 had no lives our lives were his life and 00:35:56.770 --> 00:35:59.930 that's you know that's what people need to understand about 00:35:59.930 --> 00:36:05.330 this story is you know that's how he was and i mean the controlling you know 00:36:05.330 --> 00:36:10.830 he he controlled you he controlled me to the point like i said i was i was a 00:36:10.830 --> 00:36:15.990 you know the fear of god from him you know for for reasons and i'm not talking 00:36:15.990 --> 00:36:19.010 about you know listen i as a kid i got in trouble. 00:36:19.270 --> 00:36:24.630 I did things, you know, I came home late and I, you know, and I got grounded and I got hit. 00:36:24.930 --> 00:36:28.310 And, and, and, you know, when I did stuff like that, I expected that, 00:36:28.330 --> 00:36:32.230 you know, but when, when, when I'm, what I'm talking about, the abuse and the 00:36:32.230 --> 00:36:36.430 bullying was every day was about nothing, was about nothing. 00:36:36.650 --> 00:36:39.350 You didn't have to do anything to be treated that way. You know, 00:36:39.430 --> 00:36:42.390 that's, that's just the way he, you know, he was with me and, 00:36:42.570 --> 00:36:44.530 you know, it's taken its toll. 00:36:45.710 --> 00:36:47.850 Now I have to ask a little bit, uh, 00:36:48.646 --> 00:36:54.646 later in your life, you married into a outfit family. You married Angela LaPietra's 00:36:54.646 --> 00:36:56.186 daughter, correct? Granddaughter. 00:36:57.126 --> 00:37:01.406 Granddaughter. Yeah. So how was that? I mean, how, you know, 00:37:01.506 --> 00:37:03.366 that had to be kind of interesting. 00:37:04.606 --> 00:37:09.526 Well, it, it put it this way. It was, nobody wanted that. 00:37:10.106 --> 00:37:13.786 Nobody wanted her and I to be married. Nobody wanted her and I to be together. 00:37:13.786 --> 00:37:16.806 Um, it started off as a, as us dating. 00:37:17.126 --> 00:37:22.486 Uh, I used to, how we, how we started dating and, and I mean, 00:37:22.546 --> 00:37:23.586 we were raised as cousins. 00:37:23.846 --> 00:37:27.246 That's how close our families were. So we were raised, you know, 00:37:27.326 --> 00:37:30.606 as Italian cousins, you're not really blood related, but that's your cousin. 00:37:30.906 --> 00:37:37.946 Cause, cause. Right. And, and what's weird is a lot of people find very unique 00:37:37.946 --> 00:37:40.566 is, is my father. how that started 00:37:40.566 --> 00:37:45.706 was my father wanted me, and I was probably about 16, 17 years old. 00:37:45.906 --> 00:37:50.126 And my father decided every Sunday morning, I was going to go to the bakery 00:37:50.126 --> 00:37:55.906 and pick up bread and drop it off at Angelo's house and other people's houses 00:37:55.906 --> 00:37:57.726 too, but Angelo's house was one of them. 00:37:57.986 --> 00:38:02.946 And so I started to do that every Sunday morning and they would invite me in 00:38:02.946 --> 00:38:05.986 and I would go in and I would have cup, you know, coffee with them and bread. 00:38:06.166 --> 00:38:09.466 And so that's how that all started we became friendlier that 00:38:09.466 --> 00:38:12.986 way and then we started dating and but um 00:38:12.986 --> 00:38:18.366 they they didn't really want us together uh her her mother didn't particularly 00:38:18.366 --> 00:38:22.066 like me and I think part of the reason she didn't like me was because I was 00:38:22.066 --> 00:38:27.766 part of that world my father had me being part of that world so um I think that 00:38:27.766 --> 00:38:30.726 was part of the reason why she didn't love me um. 00:38:31.839 --> 00:38:36.259 So it was, it put a lot of pressure on, on, on, and then we decided to get married 00:38:36.259 --> 00:38:41.639 and we went to city hall and got married because my father told me to stay away from her. 00:38:41.939 --> 00:38:46.419 Uh, she was told to stay away from me, but not in the same way I was told. 00:38:46.919 --> 00:38:52.119 Uh, but we decided to go to city hall and get married and, uh, nobody wanted that. 00:38:52.259 --> 00:38:55.119 And Angela was in prison at the time for the skimming case. 00:38:55.499 --> 00:38:58.599 And so he wasn't even on the street. so it 00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:01.559 was he didn't even know what was going on because he was being lied 00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:05.319 to but he was trying to control me from 00:39:05.319 --> 00:39:08.679 prison through my father telling me uh 00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:12.379 stay have your son stay away from my granddaughter um 00:39:12.379 --> 00:39:15.459 and you know my dad kept telling me well you know once angelo 00:39:15.459 --> 00:39:18.199 comes home it'll all get straightened out and then if you guys want 00:39:18.199 --> 00:39:21.759 to be together well you know that was a long time he 00:39:21.759 --> 00:39:24.759 was going to be away still for a long 00:39:24.759 --> 00:39:27.559 time he's gonna be we decided to do 00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:30.339 that and um you know my father beat the 00:39:30.339 --> 00:39:33.299 shit out of me the night he found out that i went and did that and 00:39:33.299 --> 00:39:38.919 i had to go in hiding for for like three days and the only person i was in contact 00:39:38.919 --> 00:39:44.059 with was my uncle and uh you know it was just one of many stories that i talk 00:39:44.059 --> 00:39:49.459 about like i said in the in the podcast um and and you know it was just it's 00:39:49.459 --> 00:39:51.179 stuff that you can't even imagine. 00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:53.539 Gary, you can't dream this stuff up. 00:39:53.739 --> 00:39:57.859 And it's, it's sad because now, you know, my kids, you know, 00:39:57.919 --> 00:40:01.579 are aware of everything that went on and, and, um, you know, 00:40:01.659 --> 00:40:05.899 and it's just, it put a lot of, it, it, it had a lot to do with us getting divorced. 00:40:06.179 --> 00:40:09.259 I mean, we ended up getting divorced after 20 years and, you know, 00:40:09.319 --> 00:40:13.199 and again, it was, it was rough on, on everybody was rough on my ex-wife. 00:40:13.379 --> 00:40:16.279 It was rough on my kids. It was rough on my mother. 00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:21.439 You know, it was rough on, on, you know, everybody's lives because everybody was involved. 00:40:22.099 --> 00:40:28.099 Yeah, really. I have to ask if, did you have big, when you were a kid and younger, 00:40:28.459 --> 00:40:33.779 did you have big family dinners on Sunday, every Sunday, everybody had to be there? 00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:38.919 Yes. Yes. We, we had bread. And again, I used to go pick up the bread, bring the bread home. 00:40:39.139 --> 00:40:42.839 We'd have, you know, we'd eat. My ma was a phenomenal cook, um, 00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:45.119 which, you know, my mother wasn't Italian. 00:40:45.279 --> 00:40:51.519 My mother was Irish and, um, we We have, you know, uh, relations on that side 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:54.539 who were considered associates of organized crime. 00:40:54.859 --> 00:40:58.019 We, you know, I had it between my family, my mother's family, 00:40:58.019 --> 00:41:01.779 and then the family I married into, you know, I was kind of surrounded with this. 00:41:02.899 --> 00:41:07.319 Totally surrounded by it. Yeah. And it's, you know, it is what it is. 00:41:07.459 --> 00:41:11.359 Yeah. Yeah. We used to, on Sundays, my, my mother was a phenomenal cook and, 00:41:11.479 --> 00:41:17.279 and, um, and I, uh, my mother was, was the best. I mean, I, I just lost her 00:41:17.279 --> 00:41:21.659 two years ago, but she was, I was lucky enough to have the best mother in the world. 00:41:21.959 --> 00:41:25.959 Unfortunately, I didn't have the best father, but I did have the best mother. 00:41:26.825 --> 00:41:30.925 Did she sometimes try to run interference for you a little as best she could? 00:41:31.125 --> 00:41:38.285 I know it'd be hard in that, you know, male dominated patriarchal society that you live in anyhow. 00:41:38.525 --> 00:41:42.965 Did she sometimes try to run a little interference for you? She did all the time, Gary. 00:41:43.205 --> 00:41:48.785 But what I have some regrets in my life and that I'm not probably ever going to be able to fix. 00:41:48.985 --> 00:41:52.405 But, you know, I watched my mother. I watched my father treat my mother horribly. 00:41:53.005 --> 00:41:55.885 And um and i i have regrets that 00:41:55.885 --> 00:41:58.705 i didn't do anything about it as a kid and then as 00:41:58.705 --> 00:42:01.605 growing up because uh she didn't 00:42:01.605 --> 00:42:04.385 deserve she she was a wonderful person my mother and she 00:42:04.385 --> 00:42:09.185 was there for everyone and you know he treated he treated her the same way he 00:42:09.185 --> 00:42:13.365 treated everybody else and it was just horrible and i just wish that i would 00:42:13.365 --> 00:42:17.385 have done something about it when i could have because i i she didn't deserve 00:42:17.385 --> 00:42:21.505 to live like that nobody did nobody deserved to live like that it was not a, 00:42:21.505 --> 00:42:22.745 not a good life for anybody. 00:42:23.405 --> 00:42:28.405 Um, but I, you know, I, I have regrets that I don't know if I'll ever be able 00:42:28.405 --> 00:42:30.745 to let go of cause it was, it's personal. 00:42:31.325 --> 00:42:33.705 Yeah. She didn't deserve it. Yeah. Yeah. 00:42:34.665 --> 00:42:38.545 And my mother was loyal to my father all the way to the end. 00:42:40.085 --> 00:42:43.025 Yeah. I mean, even they were divorced and the FBI 00:42:43.025 --> 00:42:45.865 came to the house and wanted to show my mom 00:42:45.865 --> 00:42:49.425 pictures of my father with his girlfriend and 00:42:49.425 --> 00:42:52.205 the house that they built and my mother slammed the door in 00:42:52.205 --> 00:42:55.645 her face you know and and that's to me that 00:42:55.645 --> 00:42:58.725 takes that's quite a person to be able to do that you 00:42:58.725 --> 00:43:02.625 know when you're you know when you're upset and you're going through you know 00:43:02.625 --> 00:43:08.945 you're grieving and you know and you know and again I'm not you know my father 00:43:08.945 --> 00:43:12.785 and it goes to show you you know there's there's so much more to this story 00:43:12.785 --> 00:43:16.925 Gary that hasn't even been told yet but you know my my father was able to get a, 00:43:17.425 --> 00:43:23.145 annulment from my mother through the church while he was in prison on trial for murder. 00:43:24.359 --> 00:43:28.679 And they, and the church didn't even notify my mother until it already went 00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:32.259 through, you know, and that's, that's the kind of guy my dad was. 00:43:32.259 --> 00:43:36.779 I mean, you know, for whatever reasons he had, and it was, I mean, 00:43:36.819 --> 00:43:41.159 he thought he was going to be able to put my mother on the stand and testify against junior. 00:43:41.679 --> 00:43:47.059 But I mean, how do you get, you know, how do you get an annulment while you're in prison for murder? 00:43:48.979 --> 00:43:51.839 Yeah exactly that you were married to all these 00:43:51.839 --> 00:43:54.679 years you've got kids with and that that kind of 00:43:54.679 --> 00:43:57.459 hurt my mother that that was kind of the last straw with 00:43:57.459 --> 00:44:01.179 my mother but i mean he wanted 00:44:01.179 --> 00:44:06.299 to do this in order to try to discredit junior to get her on the stand i know 00:44:06.299 --> 00:44:10.679 they do that a lot when you get a really frank culotta when he started testifying 00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:15.479 they they had a parade of people that would discredit him as being a liar so 00:44:15.479 --> 00:44:17.579 they could discredit the witnesses. 00:44:17.919 --> 00:44:22.879 Wow, that's typical. But he was told that they're not, you know, 00:44:22.999 --> 00:44:27.599 you can get your marriage annulled, but that's through the government. 00:44:27.899 --> 00:44:32.599 The church. They're not going to recognize her and allow her to get up on the stand and testify. 00:44:32.919 --> 00:44:36.319 They're not going to do it. But he had his own mind, his own way of thinking. 00:44:36.659 --> 00:44:42.479 He thought he was his own lawyer at that time, and he knew what was right and what he was going to do. 00:44:42.579 --> 00:44:45.559 And he didn't care about the last thing he cared about was hurting anybody's 00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:47.579 feelings. That was the last thing he cared about. 00:44:48.638 --> 00:44:52.718 So I have to ask kind of the last things here about his Cody finish. 00:44:52.878 --> 00:44:54.838 Did you know them very well? Did they come around? 00:44:55.038 --> 00:44:59.758 Was it like Joe Lombardo, you know, lumpy? Was he like uncle Joey to you or, 00:44:59.758 --> 00:45:02.758 or anything like that? Did he come around? What kind of a guy was he? 00:45:03.458 --> 00:45:07.798 You know what? I, he didn't come around. Uh, we didn't know him really much 00:45:07.798 --> 00:45:09.378 other than bumping into him. 00:45:09.538 --> 00:45:14.138 Um, I remember meeting him when I was a kid at, uh, at Dr. 00:45:14.398 --> 00:45:16.618 Pat's Palatro, who was a dentist at his office. 00:45:16.998 --> 00:45:19.838 And I met him there and I used to bump into him. 00:45:20.018 --> 00:45:23.278 And, you know, in fact, he was Joe's in a club that I used to, 00:45:23.858 --> 00:45:28.318 a friend of mine had a club on grand Avenue and I used to stop at the club occasionally. 00:45:28.698 --> 00:45:32.538 And the night before the indictments, he was at the club. 00:45:32.838 --> 00:45:36.678 He slept at the club because they couldn't find him. Yeah. He disappeared. 00:45:36.938 --> 00:45:40.558 They weren't able to find him. But I was with him in the club that afternoon. 00:45:40.698 --> 00:45:42.118 I was playing cards with him that afternoon. 00:45:42.458 --> 00:45:46.918 But, um, yeah, we didn't, um, Jimmy Marcello, we would see occasionally. 00:45:47.238 --> 00:45:51.438 Um, we knew his family pretty well. Um, and, and we would see him. 00:45:51.538 --> 00:45:55.398 And again, Gary, I, I, I never had any problem with any of these guys. 00:45:55.558 --> 00:45:58.478 I liked them. They were all very, very nice to me, you know, 00:45:59.098 --> 00:46:02.598 just, you know, and again, I'm, I'm just saying as how they were with me, 00:46:02.638 --> 00:46:06.178 you know, and, and all the people in that world, they were all, 00:46:06.378 --> 00:46:07.398 you know, they were all nice. 00:46:07.538 --> 00:46:12.078 They were all very, you know, when I would see them, you know, hug me and kiss me. 00:46:12.198 --> 00:46:16.058 And, you know, if it was in a restaurant, they'd want to buy me a drink or buy me dinner. 00:46:16.258 --> 00:46:19.658 And, you know, and, you know, and then when all this happened, 00:46:19.818 --> 00:46:23.498 you know, a lot of people kind of looked at me differently because of, 00:46:23.658 --> 00:46:24.958 you know, what my family did. 00:46:25.058 --> 00:46:28.858 And, you know, and I know there's hard feelings there because of, you know. 00:46:29.616 --> 00:46:33.376 Because a lot of people went away. A lot of people got hurt because of it. Yeah, they did. 00:46:33.676 --> 00:46:40.616 That, uh, that cop or former cop, Twan Doyle, was he a policeman during that time earlier? 00:46:40.796 --> 00:46:43.996 Did you know him as a policeman or was he always an ex-policeman? 00:46:44.376 --> 00:46:49.136 No, he, well, when we were younger, he, we knew him because he was around my 00:46:49.136 --> 00:46:50.896 dad a lot years and years ago. 00:46:51.296 --> 00:46:54.196 And then, uh, in fact, I was with my father. 00:46:54.356 --> 00:46:58.516 We were at a wedding and we bumped into him and that started up the friendship 00:46:58.516 --> 00:47:02.056 again. So he started coming around again, but, uh, he was, yeah, 00:47:02.136 --> 00:47:05.776 he way back, he was a policeman. Then he, I don't remember when he wasn't a 00:47:05.776 --> 00:47:08.676 policeman anymore, but we didn't see him that much until the wedding. 00:47:08.816 --> 00:47:11.816 And then after the wedding, he started coming around again by my dad, 00:47:11.936 --> 00:47:13.836 hanging out with my dad a little bit. Yeah. 00:47:14.336 --> 00:47:18.256 It seemed like he was more involved with gambling and running a sports book or something. 00:47:18.316 --> 00:47:22.416 If I, what I read about him was right. Yeah. He, yeah. 00:47:23.136 --> 00:47:27.676 And I mean, they started visiting my dad when he was away and they kind of tied 00:47:27.676 --> 00:47:33.936 these guys into the case and, you know, with the bloody glove and, you know, right. 00:47:34.476 --> 00:47:39.496 So they, you know, again, you know, I got to look at my dad's AG, 00:47:39.496 --> 00:47:41.456 you know, why would you involve these guys? 00:47:41.656 --> 00:47:45.396 Why would you, you know, but it was all about my dad, you know, 00:47:45.516 --> 00:47:48.556 he didn't care who he hurt or who got hurt because of him. 00:47:49.336 --> 00:47:53.576 One last quick thing, explain to the guys out there about the bloody glove. 00:47:53.736 --> 00:47:56.916 I can, I can, if you don't remember all of it, I can fill in a little bit maybe, 00:47:57.036 --> 00:48:02.636 but the bloody glove that is like oj's bloody glove man this bloody glove was 00:48:02.636 --> 00:48:06.636 the nail in the coffin it seemed to be like can you explain about that and then 00:48:06.636 --> 00:48:08.076 we'll we'll let you go kurt, 00:48:08.758 --> 00:48:16.918 Yeah, there was a glove left at the murder of John Feccherata that my uncle dropped. 00:48:17.618 --> 00:48:22.818 My uncle was the one who killed him and how it was all done and set up. He chased him down. 00:48:22.958 --> 00:48:27.158 He had to chase him down. He got shot in the car trying to kill Feccherata. 00:48:27.518 --> 00:48:33.098 He got shot. He shot himself in his arm, and he chased him down at a bingo hall, 00:48:33.258 --> 00:48:38.398 in front of a bingo hall, and shot him, and one of the gloves fell from out of his pocket. 00:48:38.898 --> 00:48:43.118 And, uh, and the government had the glove. They just never had the DNA. 00:48:43.378 --> 00:48:46.778 They just never knew, you know, that it was my uncle that did it. 00:48:47.018 --> 00:48:51.658 Uh, and then when junior decided to cooperate, he opened up that can of worms 00:48:51.658 --> 00:48:53.138 with, with the, with the glove. 00:48:53.298 --> 00:48:58.178 And, and that was the, the, the nail in the coffin for my uncle because they had his DNA. 00:48:58.398 --> 00:49:01.838 They had the, you know, the bloody glove and they had the, they, 00:49:01.918 --> 00:49:03.458 they took x-rays of his arm. 00:49:03.578 --> 00:49:05.618 They saw the, you know, where he got shot with the bullet. it. 00:49:05.698 --> 00:49:10.278 So that was, you know, at that point it was, uh, and again, it wasn't just that, 00:49:10.498 --> 00:49:12.438 that got my uncle to cooperate. 00:49:12.658 --> 00:49:16.178 It was, there were other things, but it was, yeah, they, at that point, 00:49:16.518 --> 00:49:21.018 they, they knew everything and, you know, and again, it, it all came through Frank Jr. 00:49:21.338 --> 00:49:23.878 Didn't come through my uncle. It came through Frank Jr. And, 00:49:24.058 --> 00:49:25.758 you know, I, I kind of wish Frank Jr. 00:49:25.938 --> 00:49:28.518 Would be a little bit more honest about everything that he did with that and 00:49:28.518 --> 00:49:32.898 how he started that whole case instead of basically there's times when he's 00:49:32.898 --> 00:49:36.218 blamed my uncle and said, you know, He didn't put these people away. 00:49:36.298 --> 00:49:39.818 My uncle put all these guys away. Well, that's not what happened. 00:49:40.458 --> 00:49:45.478 The name of the podcast, guys, is Underbelly Killing Kurt. 00:49:45.798 --> 00:49:50.618 Be sure and check it out. I'll have links in the show notes and on the YouTube down below. 00:49:51.178 --> 00:49:55.478 And Kurt Calabrese, do you have any final words here for my guys out there? 00:49:56.638 --> 00:50:00.298 Just I hope people can understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. 00:50:01.118 --> 00:50:04.658 I hope they get a chance to listen to the podcast. it's 00:50:04.658 --> 00:50:07.698 through entropy media it's on apple it's 00:50:07.698 --> 00:50:10.418 on uh spotify anywhere you can listen to 00:50:10.418 --> 00:50:13.218 podcasts it's on and i just hope people can 00:50:13.218 --> 00:50:17.778 understand that i'm not looking for any sympathy or any any pity because of 00:50:17.778 --> 00:50:21.358 what my life was i just want people to know this is what i live this is what 00:50:21.358 --> 00:50:27.518 i live every day and we'll watch interviews i do i hope okay thanks kurt calabrese 00:50:27.518 --> 00:50:31.198 thanks a lot for coming on, Kirk. Thank you very much for having me, Gary. 00:50:31.918 --> 00:50:35.258 Hey guys, that was really interesting. I thought I really liked that guy. 00:50:35.498 --> 00:50:38.978 He's, uh, you know, he had a tough way to go growing up. You know, 00:50:39.158 --> 00:50:42.678 we all have fathers who can be a bit strict. 00:50:42.838 --> 00:50:46.518 I was a little bit strict and, and brought an edge of violence home from my work. 00:50:46.698 --> 00:50:50.798 I didn't really, uh, flail on the kids and, and didn't really yell at them, 00:50:50.878 --> 00:50:52.518 but I just had that edge of violence. 00:50:52.658 --> 00:50:54.778 And when you work with a violent, 00:50:55.453 --> 00:50:58.393 area in your life you're going to bring that 00:50:58.393 --> 00:51:01.413 edge of violence home wherever you go with you another thing 00:51:01.413 --> 00:51:04.893 kurt told me we didn't mention during that he has a website that 00:51:04.893 --> 00:51:07.693 has a bunch of different articles and different things he's written so 00:51:07.693 --> 00:51:14.753 if you want to learn more about kurt calabrese it's kurtcalabrese.com and and 00:51:14.753 --> 00:51:18.173 so check that out and i'll have a link to that in the show notes down below 00:51:18.173 --> 00:51:23.133 so uh once again you know that i like to ride motorcycles so watch out for motorcycles 00:51:23.133 --> 00:51:25.913 when you're out there on the streets, driving your big F-150s. 00:51:26.373 --> 00:51:31.113 If you have a problem with PTSD, like Kurt does, Kurt's not been in the service, 00:51:31.313 --> 00:51:32.813 but he's getting help somewhere else. 00:51:33.393 --> 00:51:39.033 I've been in the service. The VA website has a hotline and hand in hand with 00:51:39.033 --> 00:51:42.293 PTSD many times is a problem with drugs or alcohol. 00:51:42.993 --> 00:51:46.593 And Anthony Ruggiano has a hotline 00:51:46.593 --> 00:51:49.353 on his website and he's a drug and 00:51:49.353 --> 00:51:53.013 alcohol counselor down in florida you have a problem with gambling addiction 00:51:53.013 --> 00:51:56.553 always goes hand in hand with ptsd also 00:51:56.553 --> 00:51:59.353 but you can have a problem with these new apps a 00:51:59.353 --> 00:52:04.213 lot of people are having problems with uh with addiction uh to to gambling so 00:52:04.213 --> 00:52:08.533 there's uh help out there for you somewhere i know in missouri it's 1-800 bets 00:52:08.533 --> 00:52:11.793 off i don't know what it is in your different states i think each different 00:52:11.793 --> 00:52:15.813 state that has gambling has a different website or a different hotline number 00:52:15.813 --> 00:52:18.653 I have my books and movies out there. 00:52:18.893 --> 00:52:24.513 Don't forget about them. I have a Chicago book, which has a lot of the stories 00:52:24.513 --> 00:52:28.173 from the podcast going all the way back to the early days. 00:52:28.373 --> 00:52:33.693 And I just selected different stories from the podcast. It's called Windy Cities, the Chicago Outfit. 00:52:33.873 --> 00:52:36.753 I have one about New York families. 00:52:36.973 --> 00:52:41.553 It's called Big Apple Mafia, the five families. That has a lot of stories from 00:52:41.553 --> 00:52:42.713 the oldest to the newest. 00:52:42.713 --> 00:52:47.533 I took from my podcast. my book, Leaving Vegas, which you can see back over 00:52:47.533 --> 00:52:52.953 my shoulder here, right over there, right over there, uh, Leaving Vegas. 00:52:53.133 --> 00:52:57.673 That's tells kind of the inside story of the skimming investigation from the Kansas city side. 00:52:57.833 --> 00:53:00.633 I don't know if I have anything else to sell, you know, just Google me. 00:53:00.753 --> 00:53:04.573 You can find me. I'm all over the internet and keep coming back guys. 00:53:04.713 --> 00:53:06.293 I really appreciate y'all turning in. 00:53:06.513 --> 00:53:09.573 If you have any suggestions or, you know, get on my YouTube, 00:53:09.713 --> 00:53:11.693 my YouTube has a huge following anymore. 00:53:11.873 --> 00:53:14.693 It's getting bigger than the audio podcast. Well, not quite, 00:53:14.713 --> 00:53:16.273 but it's, it's getting pretty big. 00:53:16.433 --> 00:53:20.433 Uh, tell your friends about it, like, and subscribe the YouTube channel so you 00:53:20.433 --> 00:53:24.333 can get notified that there's a new show up, which I put up pretty much one 00:53:24.333 --> 00:53:26.413 every week and sometimes one during the middle of the week. 00:53:26.673 --> 00:53:30.293 Although I've been a little bit, uh, lax on that here in the last few months 00:53:30.293 --> 00:53:33.953 while I was writing that last book, I'll get back into it again pretty soon 00:53:33.953 --> 00:53:36.653 as soon as I can. Uh, so thanks a lot guys.