WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:03.957 So, hey, welcome all you Wire Taverns. Good to be back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. 00:00:04.237 --> 00:00:07.257 I have The Last Mob Lawyer. 00:00:07.357 --> 00:00:11.837 Now, you know, we did a series on mob lawyers, Bruce Cutler and, 00:00:11.837 --> 00:00:18.177 what's his name, Jerry Nagel and a bunch of those guys. Well, I have Chris Franzblau. 00:00:18.397 --> 00:00:21.637 Now, he has written a book called The Last Mob Lawyer. 00:00:22.197 --> 00:00:29.477 And I really, I started looking at his stuff and the promos that his editor put out. 00:00:29.637 --> 00:00:31.817 And he really has had an interesting career. 00:00:32.337 --> 00:00:38.097 You know, he did some stuff with Mayor Lansky and around the Hoffa case. 00:00:38.097 --> 00:00:40.957 And he's got a lot of really interesting stories. 00:00:41.177 --> 00:00:44.097 So welcome, Chris. I'm really happy to have you on the show. 00:00:44.817 --> 00:00:48.297 Thank you. Good morning. Chris, tell the guys a little bit about, 00:00:48.317 --> 00:00:53.357 you know, your law school experience and your early practice of law, 00:00:53.357 --> 00:00:56.637 how you developed into becoming a defense lawyer. 00:00:56.857 --> 00:01:00.297 You don't just jump out and start defending big-time criminals. 00:01:00.417 --> 00:01:02.597 We know that. So where'd you go to law school? 00:01:02.977 --> 00:01:06.677 Well, I went to law school at Duke University in North Carolina. 00:01:08.077 --> 00:01:13.857 Kind of a good Southern school almost, huh? After you got out of law school, 00:01:14.177 --> 00:01:15.677 then I believe you went in the service. 00:01:15.817 --> 00:01:17.917 I believe we talked a little bit earlier. You went in the service. 00:01:17.917 --> 00:01:22.537 So tell the guys about, and you went in as a, in the JAG Corps, 00:01:22.737 --> 00:01:23.877 the Judge Advocate General. 00:01:24.037 --> 00:01:26.157 Is that what you went in as a lawyer in the Navy? 00:01:26.717 --> 00:01:33.697 Not quite. I went in, I went to this very extensive training to become a Naval 00:01:33.697 --> 00:01:38.637 officer before there was a JAG unit in the Navy. Okay. 00:01:38.837 --> 00:01:43.657 And then during that period of time, though, they sent me to what's called, 00:01:43.897 --> 00:01:52.337 after we finished that hectic program, and the Navy sent me to a very top secret cryptography school. 00:01:53.377 --> 00:01:59.037 So that I could have those kind of duties if I were assigned to that. 00:01:59.197 --> 00:02:03.757 And then they sent me to Navy Justice School because I'd been a lawyer so that 00:02:03.757 --> 00:02:06.617 I could also do court-martial work in the Navy. 00:02:07.397 --> 00:02:11.117 Then when I got out of Newport, that was all training in Newport. 00:02:11.317 --> 00:02:17.557 And then I was assigned to an admiral down in Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Florida. 00:02:17.557 --> 00:02:26.457 In Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, was part of the command of the Pensacola Admiral in Florida. 00:02:26.777 --> 00:02:30.537 The Last Mob Lawyer, you're going to get out of the Navy, you're going to go 00:02:30.537 --> 00:02:31.997 into private practice, I believe. 00:02:32.137 --> 00:02:35.997 Now, this book, guys, I want to read you something about this book. 00:02:36.317 --> 00:02:42.417 Joe Pistone, aka Donnie Brasco, said, The Last Mob Lawyer, true stories from 00:02:42.417 --> 00:02:45.437 the man who defended some of the biggest names in organized crime. 00:02:45.537 --> 00:02:50.537 It's a book that pulls back the curtain on mob life in a way only an insider could. 00:02:51.177 --> 00:02:56.437 Chris Flansblow's extraordinary legal career offers a fascinating glimpse into 00:02:56.437 --> 00:03:01.937 the dangers, the characters, and the often bizarre legal wrangling that defines the mob heyday. 00:03:02.257 --> 00:03:06.217 The Last Mob Lawyer is an essential read for anyone interested in the darker 00:03:06.217 --> 00:03:07.457 side of American history. 00:03:07.597 --> 00:03:13.377 So it sounds like a really good read and a fascinating read for a mob fan of 00:03:13.377 --> 00:03:17.277 which my guys out there that are listening, my regular listeners, 00:03:17.357 --> 00:03:20.537 especially, they are mob fans. 00:03:20.697 --> 00:03:23.917 They want to know all the intimate behind the scenes details. 00:03:23.917 --> 00:03:29.057 And I know you've got some being the lawyer and you're the first actual mob lawyer I've talked to. 00:03:29.157 --> 00:03:32.917 I only talked to a guy who was a lawyer who studied mob lawyers. 00:03:33.097 --> 00:03:37.957 So you're the first one I've talked to. Guys, listen to Chris tell a little 00:03:37.957 --> 00:03:42.137 bit about how he got into defending the mob or defending and organized crime 00:03:42.137 --> 00:03:44.537 guys. Again, you just don't drop out of, 00:03:45.041 --> 00:03:49.261 Law school, the Navy, and defending mob guys. How did that come about, Chris? 00:03:50.041 --> 00:03:53.021 Ironically, before I got out of the Navy, 00:03:53.321 --> 00:03:58.541 just shortly before, which was in the late 50s and early 60s, 00:03:58.681 --> 00:04:05.301 that's when the federal government was starting to unwind this organization 00:04:05.301 --> 00:04:10.701 they call La Cosa Nostra and organized crime and the mob. 00:04:10.701 --> 00:04:15.101 That's the way they had denoted these investigations. 00:04:15.421 --> 00:04:21.021 It started with Keith Alford and McClellan, and then there was that famous meeting in Appalachia. 00:04:21.121 --> 00:04:24.381 But I wasn't even here then because I was still in the Navy. 00:04:24.641 --> 00:04:31.461 So I got out of the Navy, and then I wound up as a prosecutor in the U.S. Attorney's Office. 00:04:32.521 --> 00:04:37.901 And that was the beginning of the prosecutions of organized crime, 00:04:37.901 --> 00:04:44.001 basically by Robert Kennedy, who was the attorney general when John Kennedy was president. 00:04:44.821 --> 00:04:49.381 And I was in the U.S. attorney's office doing investigations, 00:04:50.081 --> 00:04:51.541 criminal investigations. 00:04:51.541 --> 00:04:55.481 So I'd done some criminal work in the court marshals in the Navy, 00:04:55.481 --> 00:05:01.561 so it was a natural for me to go to the U.S. attorney's office in New Jersey. 00:05:01.961 --> 00:05:09.481 So when I got out, as luck would have it, a couple of the well-known criminal defense lawyers died. 00:05:09.781 --> 00:05:13.781 There weren't too many people doing that kind of work. And as luck would have 00:05:13.781 --> 00:05:18.321 it, coincidentally, when I was a young man, a boy, a teenager, 00:05:18.641 --> 00:05:25.921 I knew some people who were later identified as organized crime figures, 00:05:26.041 --> 00:05:31.721 mostly, for example, Jerry Katina or the guy they called the boot, 00:05:32.241 --> 00:05:34.121 Boyardo, the boot. 00:05:34.301 --> 00:05:38.341 And because they played golf at the same country club, and I was a pretty... 00:05:39.046 --> 00:05:44.286 Skillful golfer at that time, as was the admiral in Pensacola. 00:05:44.566 --> 00:05:51.486 So that all worked out very well. So they knew me as to what would have it. And I came out of the U.S. 00:05:51.646 --> 00:05:55.466 Attorney's Office as organized crime was developing. 00:05:55.766 --> 00:06:01.166 Then what happened was very early on, because I'd done this federal work, 00:06:01.286 --> 00:06:05.406 I represented a labor leader named Riggie, 00:06:05.546 --> 00:06:11.526 who later went to prison and his father in that one union, and the father was being deported, 00:06:11.726 --> 00:06:17.386 and I tried that case, and we beat the deportation back then at different times. 00:06:17.686 --> 00:06:24.566 And then I got to meet Sam the Plumber, the famous Sam the Plumber, Sam de Cavalcanti. 00:06:24.866 --> 00:06:33.686 And that opened up a Pandora's box because in that, But I uncovered the fact that J. 00:06:33.866 --> 00:06:40.346 Edgar Hoover had done these very secret investigations, wiretapping and so forth, 00:06:40.346 --> 00:06:43.186 in Sam the Plumber's office without a search warrant. 00:06:43.186 --> 00:06:47.866 And then when I asked for the discovery, they had to, after a year and a half 00:06:47.866 --> 00:06:50.626 of trying not to have to produce that discovery. 00:06:50.946 --> 00:06:55.226 Then they had to divulge it, and they'd divulge it to the newspapers, 00:06:55.226 --> 00:07:03.266 and it uncovered this huge amount of organized crime, the interrelationships, and so forth. 00:07:03.446 --> 00:07:08.326 And that kind of put me on the map, and I was very young at that time. 00:07:08.326 --> 00:07:14.426 I was in my early 30s, probably. You know, Chris, that really almost put... 00:07:14.902 --> 00:07:19.482 The mafia on the national map, almost as much as Appalachian and some of these 00:07:19.482 --> 00:07:22.802 other things, because those tapes were dynamite. 00:07:23.002 --> 00:07:27.922 And they released the transcripts of some of those tapes of Richie the Boot 00:07:27.922 --> 00:07:31.522 talking so candidly about the mafia and everything. 00:07:31.722 --> 00:07:36.002 They were dynamite. So you're the guy that really caused those to be released. 00:07:36.002 --> 00:07:37.082 That's really interesting. 00:07:37.362 --> 00:07:42.802 Yes. At that time, you know, Giuliano was the U.S. 00:07:42.962 --> 00:07:46.302 Attorney in New York. and after the Appalachia meeting, 00:07:46.922 --> 00:07:52.622 all the later people who are identified in organized crime were in Appalachia 00:07:52.622 --> 00:07:57.242 and then there were indictments in New York and that's when I started to represent 00:07:57.242 --> 00:08:03.282 Katina and then it went to the New Jersey State Investigation Commission and 00:08:03.282 --> 00:08:06.242 he wouldn't answer questions. 00:08:06.242 --> 00:08:10.982 He took the Fifth Amendment and we took that to the United States Supreme Court 00:08:10.982 --> 00:08:15.622 and lost And he did almost five years in civil contempt because he wouldn't answer questions. 00:08:16.542 --> 00:08:21.302 And then we finally got him out. I did before the New Jersey Supreme Court. 00:08:21.562 --> 00:08:25.982 That was the first case of its kind based on cruel and unusual punishment. 00:08:25.982 --> 00:08:31.962 So finally, I was able to get him extricated after doing almost five years. 00:08:32.122 --> 00:08:34.002 He was almost 75 years old. 00:08:34.682 --> 00:08:39.062 Wow. Yeah. See, we've got a picture here of a young S.E.M. 00:08:39.162 --> 00:08:45.322 Chris Fransblau with Geraldo Catina as they arrive in Trenton for an appearance 00:08:45.322 --> 00:08:47.282 before the Supreme Court. 00:08:47.522 --> 00:08:52.442 So that's look pretty young in that picture. 00:08:53.262 --> 00:08:57.722 Well, he was one of the guys up at Appalachia. 00:08:57.882 --> 00:09:04.342 Yeah, he was. And then he had to be represented in New York when Giuliani was 00:09:04.342 --> 00:09:06.662 the U.S. attorney there. 00:09:06.882 --> 00:09:12.082 And then we had some issues over there, which was interesting over there because 00:09:12.082 --> 00:09:13.942 when he had to appear at the grand jury, 00:09:14.222 --> 00:09:20.722 they assembled a lot of the people from Appalachia who were all in the waiting 00:09:20.722 --> 00:09:24.282 room for the long grand jury at the same time. 00:09:24.282 --> 00:09:27.782 Katina was called in, and he came out to consult with me. 00:09:27.962 --> 00:09:33.882 And as he was consulting with me, another attorney had a scuffle right at our feet. 00:09:34.082 --> 00:09:43.922 The fight began right then, and the other lawyer tackled got away with a suitcase 00:09:43.922 --> 00:09:47.842 that seemed to have an aerial outside and got away. 00:09:47.842 --> 00:09:53.322 It seemed like it was an FBI officer who was trying to overhear the conversations 00:09:53.322 --> 00:09:54.962 outside that grand jury room. 00:09:55.082 --> 00:10:00.622 That resulted in my making an issue out of it. Then Katina got his subpoena 00:10:00.622 --> 00:10:02.482 to testify, was withdrawn. 00:10:02.742 --> 00:10:04.522 Wow. That was exciting. 00:10:05.042 --> 00:10:09.082 That was. That was. That FBI, they were aggressive back then, 00:10:09.082 --> 00:10:13.282 and I guess there was really no exact law. 00:10:13.957 --> 00:10:18.737 Against technical surveillance, wiretapping, or hidden microphones. 00:10:18.977 --> 00:10:23.457 You couldn't use it in court, but until, what, 1968, I think, 00:10:23.497 --> 00:10:28.897 at that Omnibus Crime Control Act is when they actually created a law which 00:10:28.897 --> 00:10:33.097 had a path to get a hidden microphone or a wiretap. 00:10:33.237 --> 00:10:36.337 But before that, there was just no path, but you just couldn't use it. 00:10:36.457 --> 00:10:37.677 But it was just embarrassing. 00:10:37.857 --> 00:10:41.257 I mean, it happened in Kansas City, too, and all major cities. 00:10:41.437 --> 00:10:43.817 Well, it happened in Atlanta, too. Yeah. 00:10:44.037 --> 00:10:51.417 Which was also interesting when it came out that they had wiretapped some conversations 00:10:51.417 --> 00:10:55.597 between Martin Luther King and Cassius Clay. 00:10:55.837 --> 00:11:00.477 And that came out as a result. It all came out at the same time. 00:11:00.657 --> 00:11:07.137 So that was an embarrassment to J. Edgar Hoover and to Robert Kennedy. Yeah. 00:11:07.417 --> 00:11:11.677 You know, it was one thing to do this to members of the mafia, 00:11:11.677 --> 00:11:16.317 but there's another thing to do this to actual political figures, which is what they were. 00:11:16.517 --> 00:11:21.757 So that was really a black eye for the FBI as a whole and J. 00:11:21.817 --> 00:11:26.877 Edgar Hoover in particular. So I guess you talk about Jimmy Hoffa and Tony Pro 00:11:26.877 --> 00:11:30.117 Provenzano, who Tony Provenzano was from New Jersey. 00:11:30.337 --> 00:11:36.577 Is that, you know, from this New Jersey connections here with Jep DiCarlo and 00:11:36.577 --> 00:11:40.337 Richie the Boot and those guys? 00:11:40.337 --> 00:11:47.577 Is that how you got in with Tony Pro Provenzano? Well, Tony Provenzano had been 00:11:47.577 --> 00:11:52.417 indicted and convicted of some labor racketeering. 00:11:53.297 --> 00:11:56.277 I didn't represent him at that time, 00:11:56.317 --> 00:12:04.977 but there were some issues as to whether the previous lawyer for the union was 00:12:04.977 --> 00:12:11.617 responsible for taking some of the bribes that had taken place in that conviction. 00:12:11.617 --> 00:12:16.997 So the union decided to get rid of that lawyer. 00:12:17.197 --> 00:12:20.917 His name was Jacob Friedland, who was a state senator in New Jersey. 00:12:21.177 --> 00:12:26.997 There was a very infamous, wonderful, brilliant lawyer, former attorney general 00:12:26.997 --> 00:12:32.117 in New Jersey named David Wilentz, who was the prosecutor of the famous kidnapping 00:12:32.117 --> 00:12:36.037 case, a Limburg case, which was an international case. 00:12:36.197 --> 00:12:42.397 And he knew me. And so when the lawyers who were representing Tony Pro needed 00:12:42.397 --> 00:12:48.437 to get a new lawyer to replace Jacob Friedland, they were from New York. 00:12:48.597 --> 00:12:54.437 They contacted David T. Wilentz, and he recommended that. 00:12:54.981 --> 00:13:01.141 They needed a lawyer to keep that union clean and the pension funds clean. 00:13:01.321 --> 00:13:07.261 And so all of a sudden, I was called upon based upon his recommendation. 00:13:07.261 --> 00:13:13.941 And I began almost overnight to represent several of the major teamster unions 00:13:13.941 --> 00:13:20.901 and a state council of teamsters throughout the state and several bigger pension funds. 00:13:20.901 --> 00:13:23.921 And so that's that's how i got to 00:13:23.921 --> 00:13:26.761 represent tony pro that's a long story but yeah 00:13:26.761 --> 00:13:29.541 no but it's interesting how those i like 00:13:29.541 --> 00:13:32.501 those details how those things work now i have 00:13:32.501 --> 00:13:35.641 a question i guess maybe personally for you chris i want your 00:13:35.641 --> 00:13:41.001 opinion on this and and maybe as a way of an explanation for guys a lot of people 00:13:41.001 --> 00:13:46.601 think that because you're a lawyer and you defend the teamsters or tony Provenzano 00:13:46.601 --> 00:13:53.161 or Jerry Katina or some of these other big time monsters that somehow you're part of the mob, 00:13:53.301 --> 00:13:56.541 that somehow you have this guilty knowledge of what's going on. 00:13:56.661 --> 00:14:01.561 And I know Oscar Goodman is off. He really never was. 00:14:01.701 --> 00:14:07.581 But I know a lot of FBI agents and people involved in investigation of the mob, 00:14:07.661 --> 00:14:09.661 you know, will say, oh, no, he was part of it. 00:14:09.761 --> 00:14:15.541 And a lot of lawyers. Now, can you explain the kind of professional relationship 00:14:15.541 --> 00:14:22.321 that a lawyer has with a mobster that he doesn't become part of the crime itself? 00:14:22.521 --> 00:14:30.641 Number one is that when I was a young man, a teenager, I had known Katina before 00:14:30.641 --> 00:14:35.721 he was alleged to be a member of organized crime or Boyardo or the others. 00:14:36.041 --> 00:14:40.061 And Zwillman, they lived out here. My father knew some of them. 00:14:40.061 --> 00:14:44.861 And I was in a position where I didn't have to worry about that. 00:14:45.061 --> 00:14:48.421 I was a young guy, but I was independent. 00:14:49.101 --> 00:14:55.521 I came out of the Navy. I got promoted. I came out. I was a lieutenant commander. 00:14:55.861 --> 00:15:00.241 I went in as an ensign, retired out of the Navy, and I came out of the U.S. 00:15:00.601 --> 00:15:06.681 Attorney's Office. And so, fortunately, I won a little case that had some notoriety 00:15:06.681 --> 00:15:12.861 before these things happened, but there weren't that many people that came out of the U.S. 00:15:13.281 --> 00:15:16.561 Attorney's Office. Organized Crime was just starting. All of a sudden, 00:15:16.581 --> 00:15:22.881 I had a little federal case, and I won that case where the guy was going to be deported. 00:15:23.221 --> 00:15:27.221 And there weren't that many lawyers at that time. 00:15:28.061 --> 00:15:33.561 There were only five lawyers in the prosecutor's office at that time. 00:15:33.701 --> 00:15:35.861 Now there's probably 60 or 70. 00:15:36.081 --> 00:15:41.221 So It was a small community and people knew my father and I grew up in that 00:15:41.221 --> 00:15:45.141 community. But I could be independent in that sense. Okay. 00:15:45.881 --> 00:15:51.741 But in a couple of cases, people come to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you don't have to... 00:15:52.289 --> 00:15:57.189 You can easily set a boundary. I'm a lawyer myself and former policeman, 00:15:57.469 --> 00:16:03.169 and I had some criminal cases, and it's easy to set a boundary that here's what I do for you. 00:16:03.209 --> 00:16:07.949 I just represent you in court, and when we get done, you go on your way, 00:16:08.089 --> 00:16:13.889 you pay me or you pay me up front because I'm not taking a chance that he's 00:16:13.889 --> 00:16:17.949 going to walk away with whatever he gets and not pay me, of course. 00:16:18.509 --> 00:16:23.009 And so you set a boundary. And that's what people really don't understand is 00:16:23.009 --> 00:16:28.629 when you walk into those cases that you set a boundary immediately with these guys. 00:16:28.969 --> 00:16:34.709 You had to keep a certain distance too, not to get too familiar or whatever. 00:16:35.009 --> 00:16:41.029 And that's good. You know, there's certain formalities and that separates the men from the boys. 00:16:41.309 --> 00:16:44.049 There you go. That's a good way to put it. Now, historically, 00:16:44.129 --> 00:16:47.689 we know that Frank Sinatra was hand in glove with a lot of mob guys. 00:16:47.949 --> 00:16:52.989 So tell us about that. Well, on a particular occasion, remember Sinatra grew up in Hoboken. 00:16:53.309 --> 00:16:59.009 The original Provenzano Union was there. So before all that, they knew each other. 00:16:59.949 --> 00:17:04.989 And as time went on, one time I was out, 00:17:05.149 --> 00:17:11.309 Tony Pro, we were at some negotiations in Nevada and Sinatra was performing 00:17:11.309 --> 00:17:14.949 at the Sands, and he said to me, would you like to meet Frank Sinatra? 00:17:16.189 --> 00:17:20.889 Well, Sinatra didn't mean that much to me. I said, yeah, sure. 00:17:21.089 --> 00:17:24.889 So we went to the stage door to see Sinatra. He knocks on the door. 00:17:25.169 --> 00:17:28.789 He knew Sinatra quite well, obviously. 00:17:29.169 --> 00:17:32.549 Knocks on the door, and Sinatra's right-hand guy, I forget his name as we're 00:17:32.549 --> 00:17:34.009 speaking, comes to the door and, 00:17:34.627 --> 00:17:39.427 Tony says, tell Mr. Sinatra that Tony Pro is here. 00:17:39.647 --> 00:17:43.207 So he said, oh, just wait a minute. He shut the door. He comes back and he said, 00:17:43.507 --> 00:17:47.147 I'm sorry, Mr. Provencino, but Mr. Sinatra can't see you. 00:17:48.167 --> 00:17:54.367 Tony Pro was so mad. He kicked the door and so forth and so on. 00:17:54.527 --> 00:18:00.847 But of course, Sinatra had his own problems because he couldn't be seen out 00:18:00.847 --> 00:18:06.187 there with a member of organized crime, which Tony Proe had classified for. 00:18:06.467 --> 00:18:11.967 I tried to explain that to him because then he would be ineligible to perform 00:18:11.967 --> 00:18:20.067 the license under the Nevada State Gambling Commission. Yeah. 00:18:20.447 --> 00:18:24.407 Also talk about Tony Proe and his connection to Hoffa. 00:18:24.467 --> 00:18:31.167 What can you tell us about that? Well, they had a most interesting relationship from my observation. 00:18:32.127 --> 00:18:37.427 Hoffa was probably one of the most independent people I ever knew, 00:18:37.587 --> 00:18:40.287 you know, with no sense of humor. 00:18:40.987 --> 00:18:45.607 Oh, really? Tony Pro was a very entertaining guy. I mean, I've seen him. 00:18:46.187 --> 00:18:51.827 He could be the most charming and the most difficult person, 00:18:51.827 --> 00:18:54.467 depending on the circumstances. 00:18:54.727 --> 00:18:59.287 But his personality seemed to really appeal to Hoffa. 00:18:59.527 --> 00:19:03.827 And in many respects, he was very independent because Hoffa was very demanding. 00:19:04.447 --> 00:19:08.507 But he was almost on a level. 00:19:08.867 --> 00:19:15.627 And Hoffa, I got the impression that Hoffa was very dependent because Tony was 00:19:15.627 --> 00:19:19.847 a very personable person. and he knew everybody, every place we ever went. 00:19:21.267 --> 00:19:25.927 I mean, he could be a charming type rogue. 00:19:26.927 --> 00:19:31.867 Interesting. But I never had any problems. He and I always got along very, very well. 00:19:34.447 --> 00:19:38.667 What do you remember about the famous quarrel between Hoffa, 00:19:38.767 --> 00:19:42.127 the famous quarrel between Hoffa and Tony Pro? 00:19:42.687 --> 00:19:46.647 Yeah, I recall that. That was out in Lewisburg in Pennsylvania. 00:19:47.897 --> 00:19:54.077 That was interesting. What happened was when Hoffa went to prison, 00:19:54.357 --> 00:19:57.057 he didn't lose his pensions. 00:19:58.337 --> 00:20:02.117 He had a very substantial pension when he left the unions. 00:20:02.937 --> 00:20:10.117 But when Tony Pro was put on the sidelines because he was no longer able to 00:20:10.117 --> 00:20:15.697 be a member of labor unions or be an officer of any labor unions, 00:20:16.017 --> 00:20:19.517 he forfeited his pension. 00:20:19.737 --> 00:20:24.677 Oh, wow. And he always believed when Fitzsimmons took over the Teamsters unions 00:20:24.677 --> 00:20:34.597 that Hoffa could influence Fitzsimmons for Tony Pro to get his pension benefits, 00:20:34.617 --> 00:20:38.057 that they shouldn't be forfeited. Why should Hoffa have gotten his? 00:20:38.297 --> 00:20:44.057 But Hoffa was convicted of a crime that didn't require his forfeiture with Tony 00:20:44.057 --> 00:20:47.737 Pro, which under the Taft-Hartley Act and everything was different. 00:20:47.977 --> 00:20:51.397 Tony Pro never got through his head that it couldn't be done, 00:20:51.417 --> 00:20:57.337 and Hoffa made a couple of remarks, you know, and Tony Pro lost his head, 00:20:57.437 --> 00:20:59.817 and he went after Hoffa in the meeting. 00:21:00.157 --> 00:21:05.177 It was no big deal. It was, you know, that was very unpleasant. 00:21:05.817 --> 00:21:11.517 Yeah, okay. I understand now that Tony Pro's conviction was for crimes in connection 00:21:11.517 --> 00:21:16.897 with union activity, while Jimmy Hoffa's conviction was for jury tampering that 00:21:16.897 --> 00:21:20.137 didn't have anything to do with union activity. 00:21:20.517 --> 00:21:24.937 That's why he got to keep his pension, and Tony Pro didn't. I understand now. 00:21:25.137 --> 00:21:29.417 I'd see why Tony Pro was mad, but, you know. He had a hot temper. 00:21:29.757 --> 00:21:33.717 So speaking of all that relationship, this hitman that worked for him, 00:21:33.797 --> 00:21:37.717 did you know him, Sally Buggs, Brigulio? 00:21:38.437 --> 00:21:43.617 Yes, I know him quite well. So tell us about your relationship with him and 00:21:43.617 --> 00:21:47.137 tell us, you know, your opinion of him, what you remember about Sally Buggs. 00:21:47.798 --> 00:21:53.738 Kind of purportedly the man that killed jimmy hoffa possibly well he was always a target. 00:21:54.638 --> 00:22:04.138 Uh he was a target of that and uh as was tony pro as cold as ice and uh he he went 00:22:04.578 --> 00:22:10.198 his own way and he was a very independent guy and a nasty kind of guy too i 00:22:10.198 --> 00:22:15.318 really never got along that well i was never that friendly with him uh very 00:22:15.318 --> 00:22:18.898 frankly he was really like a bodyguard or chauffeur, 00:22:19.138 --> 00:22:27.098 but he was a business agent at Local 560, and he was on the board of trustees of the union. 00:22:27.318 --> 00:22:32.358 And I had a big argument with him at the Teamsters Pension Fund, 00:22:32.438 --> 00:22:36.338 and there's still a guy who was there who witnessed it, who's still alive. 00:22:36.378 --> 00:22:42.798 I spoke to him just the other day, named Bob Archibald, who was one of the trucking 00:22:42.798 --> 00:22:46.158 company appointees to the board of trustees. 00:22:46.158 --> 00:22:54.018 Reason, Greguglio wanted to have the board, the pension fund give a mortgage 00:22:54.018 --> 00:23:00.478 that became a big issue to some people from Detroit. 00:23:00.978 --> 00:23:06.178 And he outlined it, you know, because the pension funds often made investments. 00:23:06.358 --> 00:23:07.778 We had investment advisors. 00:23:07.998 --> 00:23:15.258 It was a huge, big pension fund, and I was the attorney, but I was selected 00:23:15.258 --> 00:23:18.098 to keep everything on the up and up. 00:23:18.438 --> 00:23:24.858 So I said I would not approve. I recommended against it and so forth. 00:23:24.958 --> 00:23:30.558 They said, look, you're here for legal advice, not what to do or not to do. 00:23:30.818 --> 00:23:36.098 And he threatened me, and we never got along too well after that. 00:23:37.590 --> 00:23:41.510 Wow, well, that's... Bob Archibald, who was still alive, was there. 00:23:43.750 --> 00:23:49.770 Most of the other guys are gone. Bob Archibald just turned 101 a couple months ago. 00:23:49.950 --> 00:23:53.150 Interesting. That was bold of you to not approve a mortgage, 00:23:53.350 --> 00:23:59.430 a pension loan that Sally Buggs wanted approved. That was pretty bold of people 00:23:59.430 --> 00:24:02.870 who've been killed for less, I think. Well, they went and they did the mortgage, though. 00:24:03.050 --> 00:24:05.430 That was the problem. Well, they got it done, okay. 00:24:05.870 --> 00:24:11.010 And they put the mortgage on, and some other lawyers handled it. I wouldn't do it. 00:24:11.170 --> 00:24:18.230 Yeah, wouldn't judge it. And the guys who got it were later indicted because the deal fell through. 00:24:18.610 --> 00:24:22.630 They were tried by a federal judge named Alistair Hastings. 00:24:23.690 --> 00:24:29.630 Alistair Hastings then was, after that trial, was impeached by the United States 00:24:29.630 --> 00:24:35.850 Senate, and they took his judgeship away for allegedly taking bribes. 00:24:35.990 --> 00:24:41.610 So then after he lost his judgeship, he ran Fort Lauderdale to become the U.S. 00:24:41.710 --> 00:24:45.510 House of Representatives representative, and he got elected, 00:24:45.690 --> 00:24:49.550 and he served in the House of Representatives for 30 years. 00:24:51.210 --> 00:24:56.750 Believe it or not. Believe it or not. Only in America, as they say. Yeah. 00:24:58.550 --> 00:25:03.870 What seemed to have happened was when Hoffa got out, he was pardoned by Nixon. 00:25:04.210 --> 00:25:07.930 He got the pardon, but he was supposed to be pardoned a year earlier. 00:25:08.130 --> 00:25:17.750 Hoffa, because as we said before, did not forfeit his right to go back to become a union official. 00:25:18.530 --> 00:25:24.050 So he was still eligible. So he was supposed to get a year sooner. 00:25:24.210 --> 00:25:29.370 He was thought to get out at Christmas. In those days, if I can remember. 00:25:30.210 --> 00:25:34.470 Pardons were really only granted by a president just before Christmas. 00:25:34.790 --> 00:25:39.010 In that year, he was promised or thought he was going to get the pardon. 00:25:39.588 --> 00:25:44.128 And the last minute it got canceled and he went nuts. 00:25:44.648 --> 00:25:48.688 So finally it got put back on the next year. 00:25:48.948 --> 00:25:51.968 But when they got it the next year and he got the pardon, 00:25:52.448 --> 00:26:00.728 it had been the former international lawyer for the union was a good friend 00:26:00.728 --> 00:26:05.208 of mine who I later during some of these days got to meet a friend of a guy 00:26:05.208 --> 00:26:09.428 named Edward Bennett Williams. Oh, yeah, I've heard of him. 00:26:09.448 --> 00:26:11.968 He was the finest, greatest lawyer I always looked up to. 00:26:12.148 --> 00:26:14.668 What happened was he had resigned. 00:26:15.048 --> 00:26:21.448 He had some differences, and he resigned, and a new lawyer took over. 00:26:21.688 --> 00:26:26.248 And when the pardon was drawn and given to Hoffa, they put in the pardon that 00:26:26.248 --> 00:26:28.868 he could not become a union official anymore. 00:26:29.188 --> 00:26:32.688 And that was not Hopper's understanding of what the deal was. 00:26:32.828 --> 00:26:39.708 So when he got out, he wanted to go back to the union, and he wanted to get the pardon revised. 00:26:39.868 --> 00:26:42.048 So he was threatening everybody. 00:26:42.788 --> 00:26:49.068 So he was threatening people that if he didn't get back to union office and 00:26:49.068 --> 00:26:50.628 didn't get the pardon revised, 00:26:51.168 --> 00:26:55.528 feeling that people could influence the president or whatever, 00:26:55.768 --> 00:27:00.348 that he would give evidence against others or whatever. 00:27:00.548 --> 00:27:06.188 But I never knew anything further until I was heard about his disappearance. 00:27:06.188 --> 00:27:14.128 And now, I had this coincidental experience just last year when I knew that 00:27:14.128 --> 00:27:16.788 they were looking for Huffa all over the place. 00:27:17.868 --> 00:27:24.868 The FBI could never dig up. They must have gotten lots of tips of where Huffa was buried. 00:27:25.328 --> 00:27:28.788 And they dug up two or three places 00:27:28.788 --> 00:27:33.408 in New Jersey right under the Pulaski Skyway. Yeah, I read about that. 00:27:33.628 --> 00:27:38.668 Two or three different times. And one day, I was out playing golf with some friends of mine. 00:27:38.968 --> 00:27:44.868 I was introduced to someone there who I'd never met before. 00:27:45.168 --> 00:27:49.448 And he was just new, you know, meet so-and-so. 00:27:49.588 --> 00:27:52.268 When he heard my name, he said, you know, I've always wanted to meet you. 00:27:52.368 --> 00:27:53.768 There's a story I want to tell you. 00:27:53.928 --> 00:28:00.308 And he proceeded to tell me exactly where Hoffa was buried. 00:28:00.888 --> 00:28:06.088 Oh, really? And why and how he was there to see it and what he described. 00:28:06.348 --> 00:28:09.228 And there's some stuff in the book about it. 00:28:09.488 --> 00:28:14.728 All right. Well, that's a pretty good teaser by that book. Based upon what he told me. 00:28:15.328 --> 00:28:21.208 And he told me that at the time that it happened during the FBI investigation 00:28:21.208 --> 00:28:26.588 and they were digging up, he said he called and reported it to the New York 00:28:26.588 --> 00:28:28.948 Times, but he never heard anything or anything. 00:28:29.648 --> 00:28:33.088 And all these years had gone by. He's now in his middle 70s, 00:28:33.208 --> 00:28:36.708 this guy who I met at Mount Ridge Country Club. 00:28:37.148 --> 00:28:43.768 But what he described, I absolutely believe that that's exactly where Huff is 00:28:43.768 --> 00:28:49.408 buried, within a couple hundred yards of where the FBI had apparently gotten 00:28:49.408 --> 00:28:51.308 some tips of where he was buried. 00:28:51.768 --> 00:28:56.888 Back in New Jersey, those New Jersey tips. New Jersey, under the Pulaski Skyway, 00:28:57.128 --> 00:28:58.848 not far from the Pulaski Skyway. 00:28:58.948 --> 00:29:03.388 Yeah, I interviewed that guy that came up with that theory, and he had some 00:29:03.388 --> 00:29:09.008 pretty convincing arguments that the people, as he related the people that told 00:29:09.008 --> 00:29:13.908 the stories about where he was and how he ended up back east, 00:29:14.148 --> 00:29:17.828 that it was a pretty convincing argument enough that the Bureau didn't spend 00:29:17.828 --> 00:29:21.308 a bunch of money to go out there. This guy told me he saw it. He saw it. 00:29:22.848 --> 00:29:27.068 He's still alive. Well, I tell you what, if you can dig that body up, 00:29:27.168 --> 00:29:31.988 you can get a lot of hits on the internet. I know that. That would be a big 00:29:31.988 --> 00:29:35.348 deal. That would be huge to dig up Jimmy Hoffa's body. 00:29:35.528 --> 00:29:39.028 It's taking on mythical proportions, as you know. So, you know, 00:29:39.128 --> 00:29:43.648 there's Tony Provisano and he was taking a lot of money personally out and these 00:29:43.648 --> 00:29:50.388 guys were really raiding the Teamsters Pension Fund in a way. 00:29:51.028 --> 00:29:55.108 What did you see? Do you have one kind of one last question? 00:29:55.108 --> 00:30:00.608 How would you comment on the efficacy of the loans that the Teamsters Pension 00:30:00.608 --> 00:30:03.068 Fund made? I get a lot of questions about that. 00:30:03.535 --> 00:30:07.295 Did they really, did the mob really hurt the pension fund or did they let some 00:30:07.295 --> 00:30:11.315 people would say, oh yeah, all those loans, they got paid back or were there a lot of defaults? 00:30:11.375 --> 00:30:13.615 Did you, do you have any comment on that? 00:30:13.955 --> 00:30:19.195 I can tell you this. I probably, I can only tell you I was the only pension 00:30:19.195 --> 00:30:22.695 funds that I were, where we were here in New Jersey that I was counseled to. 00:30:23.275 --> 00:30:31.415 Okay. The only suspicion I ever had was that one I just described to you a little while ago. 00:30:31.415 --> 00:30:35.075 We had the best investment advisors 00:30:35.075 --> 00:30:40.375 and the pension funds were extremely successful in their investments. 00:30:40.595 --> 00:30:45.035 We had the biggest investment advisors on Wall Street. It was very, 00:30:45.135 --> 00:30:47.715 very, very carefully monitored. 00:30:48.495 --> 00:30:52.775 Okay. So the New Jersey pension fund was different from the one in Chicago. 00:30:53.055 --> 00:30:58.455 I think the one in Chicago must have been huge. 00:30:58.795 --> 00:31:06.575 It was. We had a big fund here for a size at that time, but the pension fund 00:31:06.575 --> 00:31:09.155 here was as clean as a whistle. 00:31:09.835 --> 00:31:12.815 Okay. All right. Interesting to know. All right. 00:31:12.995 --> 00:31:19.135 Chris Fransblau, named the book as The Last Mob Lawyer, True Stories from the 00:31:19.135 --> 00:31:22.415 Man Who Defended Some of the Biggest Names in Organized Crime. 00:31:23.055 --> 00:31:28.815 Chris, it's a fascinating book. I got the PDF and I've, I've read some bits 00:31:28.815 --> 00:31:30.095 and pieces as much as I could. 00:31:30.275 --> 00:31:33.935 I got to get back into it now. Cause you, you've kind of stirred me up where 00:31:33.935 --> 00:31:37.815 I want to, I want to learn more out of what you, uh, out of your experiences. 00:31:37.815 --> 00:31:40.815 So I really appreciate you coming on the show. Anytime. 00:31:41.335 --> 00:31:44.675 Well, that was pretty interesting guys. Uh, a guy, he's, uh, 00:31:44.695 --> 00:31:46.995 he's seen a lot of history, man, a lot of history. 00:31:47.395 --> 00:31:51.195 So don't forget. I like to ride motorcycles. If you, uh, are out there in your 00:31:51.195 --> 00:31:56.215 car and your big 10,000 pound SUV, Watch out for motorcycles when you're out 00:31:56.215 --> 00:31:58.035 there because you can squash us like a bug. 00:31:58.715 --> 00:32:05.395 If you have a problem with PTSD, be sure and go to the VA website if you have been a vet. 00:32:05.555 --> 00:32:08.455 And if you haven't been a vet, well, I figure out some other place to go get 00:32:08.455 --> 00:32:11.915 some help because there's help available. And PTSD affects a lot of people. 00:32:12.335 --> 00:32:16.435 And hand in glove with PTSD is problems with drugs and alcohol. 00:32:16.875 --> 00:32:19.795 You know, they always, you know, get treated for one. You probably got the other. 00:32:19.795 --> 00:32:24.815 Uh, our friend, Anthony Ruggiano from the Gambino crime family is a drug and 00:32:24.815 --> 00:32:27.975 alcohol counselor down in Florida. And he has a hotline on his, 00:32:27.975 --> 00:32:29.955 uh, YouTube channel or his website. 00:32:30.115 --> 00:32:32.435 One of the two or both of them, maybe I can't remember. 00:32:32.635 --> 00:32:36.315 And if you have a problem with gambling, there's one 800 bets off, 00:32:36.435 --> 00:32:41.495 at least here in Missouri, you know, getting ready to do the apps for, for gambling. 00:32:41.675 --> 00:32:45.235 And there's a lot more, more and more gambling is out there and more and more 00:32:45.235 --> 00:32:47.215 opportunities, you know, uh, 00:32:47.808 --> 00:32:51.928 I don't really care for it myself. I lose $20 at a casino and I like, 00:32:52.068 --> 00:32:53.828 oh shit, get me out of here. 00:32:54.508 --> 00:32:57.488 But you know, it's everybody isn't like that. 00:32:57.628 --> 00:33:01.648 Everybody has a different appetite for that kind of risk with their money. 00:33:01.788 --> 00:33:06.608 And so if, if you feel like it's causing any trouble, why try to get some help 00:33:06.608 --> 00:33:09.308 for that. Don't forget, I've got books and movies out there. 00:33:09.468 --> 00:33:13.288 I'll have a link to the last mob lawyer down there at the show notes. 00:33:13.288 --> 00:33:20.388 I will have links to my books and my, uh, documentaries that you can stream 00:33:20.388 --> 00:33:25.028 for just, I think a buck 99 on Amazon, or I've got them on my website. 00:33:25.028 --> 00:33:28.408 I figured out a way you can stream them off my website and I get the whole dollar 00:33:28.408 --> 00:33:32.068 99 instead of only 95 cents of it or whatever it is. 00:33:32.348 --> 00:33:36.348 Uh, and the books the same way I got them on my website or you can get them 00:33:36.348 --> 00:33:37.768 on Amazon, which is a lot easier. 00:33:37.868 --> 00:33:40.688 And you get the Kindle books, which is a lot cheaper if you like Kindles. 00:33:40.688 --> 00:33:44.388 And so help me out with those books, uh, every, every time. 00:33:44.548 --> 00:33:48.548 And, and give me a review on those books. I didn't get many reviews on my New York book. 00:33:48.688 --> 00:33:53.008 I didn't really kind of push people on that. I did push them a little bit to 00:33:53.008 --> 00:33:56.328 buy it, but I didn't remind them to give me a review. 00:33:56.508 --> 00:34:00.048 And I've got, I don't have, I've sold more books than the Chicago books, 00:34:00.148 --> 00:34:01.388 but I've got less reviews. 00:34:01.528 --> 00:34:05.068 So it helps for me to get reviews on those books. 00:34:05.188 --> 00:34:08.968 Why you help out the podcast because you sell more books and then I get more 00:34:08.968 --> 00:34:13.508 money. And, you know, I'm more, more enthused about doing the podcast and, 00:34:13.508 --> 00:34:16.728 and this is, you know, you got to watch a few ads, but other than that, 00:34:16.848 --> 00:34:20.028 it's, it's all free content here. So thanks a lot, guys.