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Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. In this episode, we dive into the captivating tales of Gary Clemente’s father, Peter C. Clemente, who was a significant figure in the FBI’s Top Hoodlum Squad. Peter’s career spanned from 1950 to 1976, and he played a vital role in various high-profile cases within the Mafia. One notable event was the Appalachian Mob Conclave, where top mob leaders were detained, leading to the inception of the Top Hoodlum Program initiated by J. Edgar Hoover. Peter Clemente’s proactive approach led him to have a face-to-face encounter with Carlo Gambino, a powerful Mafia boss. Gambino was surprised by Peter’s bold move and their interaction provided valuable insights into Gambino’s demeanor and voice, essential for future investigations. Another riveting story recounts Agent Clemente’s extensive wiretapping operation on Carlo Gambino while he stayed at a motel in Miami Beach. The meticulous operation involved eavesdropping on Gambino’s conversations with his associates, shedding light on the inner workings of the Mafia. Furthermore, the episode touches on Peter’s involvement in debriefing Joe Valachi, a crucial informant who revealed significant information about the Mafia’s structure. Despite initial reluctance due to mistrust, Valachi eventually cooperated with an Irish-speaking agent, facilitating the gathering of invaluable intelligence.
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Transcript
[0:00]
Introduction
[0:00]Well, hey, all you wiretappers out there and back here in the studio of Gangland Wire, as you can see, this is retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit Sergeant and Detective Gary Jenkins. We have a great story today. The son of an FBI agent who was one of the early first agents that was assigned to the FBI’s top hoodlum squad and worked on Carlo Gambino and talked to Joe Vellacci and some really great stories. He’s going to have a book coming out called Untold Tales from the FBI Top Hoodlum Squad. Welcome, Gary Clemente. Good to see you, Gary. Another Gary. Yeah, really. You know, there was a lot of us named Gary in the early 1950s. Did you notice that? I think so. I think we were all named after Gary Cooper. That was why. I asked my mother once. She said, I don’t know. We just couldn’t think of anything else. But I think that’s what it was because nobody names their kid Gary now. There you go. There you go. I’m Italian myself, and Gary’s not a common Italian name. I know. I know. I was surprised when I saw your first name.
[1:09]Anyhow, Gary, it’s a pleasure to meet you, and I look forward to this interview. I read a little bit about you. I don’t remember how I found out about you on Facebook or I don’t know. I’ve got so many feelers out there for people that have books or have knowledge about the mob that I forget where it came from. But anyhow, I got a hold of you and you graciously agreed to come on the podcast in order to tell the guys about your book and about your father’s experiences. And I looked them up and and he was an early guy in the top hoodlum squad, wasn’t he? He sure was, Gary. He started off in the Bureau in 1950, and his career spanned from 1950 to 19. Just an interesting side note, at that time, there was a little bit of discrimination in the world at that time with Italians. And he was told after he became an attorney, my father was, that by a cousin of his, my father had expressed to him that, hey, you know, I’ve always been interested in being a part of the FBI. His cousin said to him, forget it, Pete. They don’t take Italians.
[2:17]Well, my father did not like that at all. So he marched out of the FBI office. Before you knew it, He was sitting across the desk from another agent being interviewed for a position, and he noticed that the agent’s name was John Garibaldi or whatever Italian name it was at that time. Well, that answered the question about whether they were going to take Italians or not.
[2:41]So from 1950 to 1976, that was the span of my father’s career. The early part of his career was based in Quincy, Illinois. Then he went to Cleveland.
[2:56]
Early Career Discrimination
[2:52]Then he was transferred to New York. And he was born and raised in Brooklyn. So his parents, his Sicilian-born parents, were very appreciative of that. My dad’s early career, very interestingly, was involved with doing security background checks for people applying for sensitive government positions. And the federal government at that time was really interested whether you were a member of the Communist Party USA or the Socialist Workers Party, believe it or not, which they don’t do that now. Now, and I asked my dad, fast forward, very short, later on when he was in his late 80s, I said, hey, Pop, those people that you used to investigate and arrest that were part of the Communist Party or, say, the Socialist Workers Party, that were trying to worm their way into the government, those people are now in the deepest reaches of our bureaucracies or Congress or Supreme Court and the White House. He said, absolutely.
[4:01]So that’s how much things have changed over the years, Gary.
[4:09]
The Appalachian Mob Conclave
[4:05]So the early part of his career was involved with security background checks. Then a seminal event happened.
[4:14]It was the Appalachian Mob Conclave, where all of the top mob leaders were having a meeting in Appalachian, New York, a small town in upstate New York. I’m sure that you’ve talked about this already a little bit, and it’s a famous story. But after the mob conclave happened, my father heard about it, and the FBI was talking about this disastrous meeting. Meeting among all these mobsters these men were running across the field because there was a road block set up on the edge of the edge of the property of joe barbara and they got panicked these were the top mob bosses that were running across the field stepping in cow pies throwing their wallets out left and right trying to evade the police and much of their identification was rounded up. People like Carlo Gambino were there. Mario Lansky was there as well, too. Mario Lansky was not a made mob guy with the Italian mob, but he worked with them. He was there, too.
[5:22]And what happened was they should not have arrested or incarcerated any of these people, which they haven’t. They actually detained them. But word got back to the Bureau. All of this This information got back to the Bureau. My father heard about it. The Bureau was starting to implement something called the Top Hoodlum Program that Hoover was beginning to formulate.
[5:48]My father wanted to be a part of this. He put in for a transfer out of the security detail into the Top Hoodlum squad that was being developed in New York. And that’s how he became a part of all of that. Interesting. Now, you know, we have never said your father’s full name. It’s Peter C. Clemente, correct? Peter Charles Clemente. That’s correct. Correct. And so he was a member of the Top Hoodlum Squad, which was, I remember in Kansas City, I have a friend who was an agent that came to Kansas City. He’s Italian from New York City, and he speaks Sicilian. He grew up with Sicilian grandparents, and he was a member of the Top Hoodlum Squad in Kansas City immediately, and because they knew they needed these guys who were Sicilian speakers.
[6:37]Exactly, exactly. The fact that my father could speak and understand Sicilian, like your friend, was very, very important at that time because many of these individuals were either from Sicily or mainland Italy. Many of these guys were from the Naples area. They had connections with a group called Camorra. The Camorra and the Sicilians really did like each other. They were pretty much rivals. They would have heated problems with one another. But they worked together nonetheless when it came down to this. Money, yeah. Came down to the money, the moolah, yes. That’s right. All those old regional differences just fall away. Al Capone was a Neapolitan, but he had plenty of Sicilians working with him. Exactly. He needed those people working with him to get on their good side.
[7:29]
Working with the Mafia
[7:30]Interesting. So now your father, he starts working the mob, the mafia. There’s one really great story that’s going to be in your book. It’s mainly what your book is going to be about. It’s the first of a series, guys. So start watching for this series. But there’s a story about your father and Carlo Gambino early on in both their careers, really. Can you tell us that story?
[7:55]Well, after my father became a part of the Top Hoodlum Squad in New York, He was the first one ever that the FBI asked him to do summary reports about an individual named Carlo Gambino, as well as Meyer Lansky. So he was the first one ever to put on paper into the government circles about who Carlo Gambino was, his life, his history, where he was born, all of this, to put this on record. So he was the first one to do that. As part of the top hoodlum squad, he had the idea while doing the summary report about Carlo Gambino. He said, you know what, I would like to pay this individual a visit. I would like to meet him face to face. That was his idea. It wasn’t brought down from the supervisors. So one day, Gary, he went out to Brooklyn, New York. He waited outside of Gambino’s home about a half a block away. It was a brownstone in Brooklyn. He waited for Gambino to come out of his house. He saw him give his wife, Kate Gambino, a kiss goodbye. Now, Kate Gambino happened to be Caldwell’s first cousin.
[9:20]Oh, yeah. Interestingly enough. And Kate’s brother was Paul Castellano, who was a very, very highly connected Gambino lieutenant at the time, who eventually became a head of the Gambino crime family after Gambino died peacefully in his bed. Not in a prison cell but in his bed so my my father waited for him to come down the steps after giving kate a kiss goodbye he comes up the the street he’s alone he doesn’t have any body cars wow that’s interesting why doesn’t he have any body cars well he doesn’t need any body cars He is the unofficial boss of bosses of all five Mafia families. I say unofficial, Gary, because at that time, he was never officially named the boss of bosses. Previous to that, several decades ago, when there was the big Mafia war that happened between many of the families, one of the mob bosses was named the boss of bosses officially by the other families.
[10:32]But Carlo was never officially named, but he was called the boss of the boss because he had that much power. His family was that big, over 200 members, which was considerable at that time. So he comes up the street. My father waits for him. He has no bodyguards.
[10:53]He says to him, Mr. Gambino, my name is Peter Clemente. I’m with the FBI. Yeah, I’d like to ask you a few questions if I could.
[11:04]Gambino is pretty surprised because nobody’s ever done this to him. And he has a very, very hot-like face. He has these very beady eyes. My father has always described him in his book as having the eyes of an eagle, of a bird of prey. And he had this very, very distinctive, some people called it a banana nose.
[11:29]But it was like the beak of an eagle or a bird of prey. And my father showing him his identification, his badge, his credentials, he looks up slowly from the credentials into his eyes. And my father could see this is not chopped liver. This is not a guy with a banana nose. You don’t mess around with this guy. Now, my father had a lot of experience in the Bureau at that time. Nothing dissuaded him from interviewing Gambino. This is something he wanted to do. He was an experienced agent at that time, early 30s. He knew what he was doing. Gambino immediately says to him, what is it you want from me?
[12:15]
First Encounter with Carlo Gambino
[12:15]Well my father said well I’d like to ask you a few questions about an associate of yours that you’ve been doing business with and what happened with your associations with him and Gambino immediately says I can’t I forgot to mention this is important the whole time.
[12:35]He was speaking Sicilian to Gambino the whole time. Good. That’s great. Yeah. And Gambino was not used to that in any way, shape, or form. And Gambino said, I see that you’re one of us. You speak Sicilian. You’re one of us. Why are you bothering me? What is it you want from me? He says, well, as I mentioned, I would like to ask you some questions about your association with your business partner. He said, well, I’ve got nothing to tell you. I’m an honest businessman. I’ve done nothing wrong. I’m an honest businessman.
[13:13]And he actually told my father, you should be ashamed of yourself. You are a spiro, S-P-I-R-O, spiro in Italian. In Sicilian, that’s police spy, which is the worst thing you could be, a police spy. You are nothing but a spiro. You should be ashamed of yourself. My father has looked at him and said, my father is not somebody to be trifled with at all. He said, I should be offended? I should be offended. Well, sir, you are the one that should be offended. You have disgraced the Italian-American people of this country, the hardworking Italian-American people that have come over here honestly and legally, like my mother and my father. You have disgraced all of us with the illegal events that you have put yourself through and your crime family through. You’re the one that should be ashamed. A shame. Well, you know, did not like that at all. Says something about.
[14:17]Not very nice in Italian that doesn’t mean I want you to come over and have, you know, a dinner with me. Something like, ma pan di me, F you. And it’s just, you know, he wheeled around. I’ve heard that. That’s right. We all know what it means. I don’t have to get explicit about it. He wheels around to his car. A couple of his bodyguards were in the car at the time. They opened the door. They’re looking at my father like they wish they could beat the hell out of my father.
[14:47]Gambino drives off and that was the end of his face-to-face interview now here’s the interesting part about it why did he do this Gary? why?
[14:59]Does he think that Gambino is going to arrest Gambino? What’s the reason for him having a face-to-face interview? Well I purposely left that out to explain that my father told me son there were two things there were two reasons why I wanted to have a face-to-face with him. Number one, I wanted to see if he was easily rattled or not. I wanted to profile him. I wanted to understand his personality, how he reacted to questions. Was he ruffled easily? Was he calm? How did he respond to my questions? And number two, the most important part was I wanted to hear his voice.
[15:44]I said, why did you want to hear his voice, Dad? He says, well, if we ever recorded him, if we had him on tape and I listened to him, I could identify him. As the man behind the voice in whatever recordings that we had of him. So that was the purpose of that.
[16:02]
Undercover Wiretapping in Florida
[16:02]Yeah, interesting. Yeah. And that kind of brings up the next story about the time that he did hear his voice over a wire, so to speak. It’s a great story. And I guess my first question with that is, it was down in Florida. So did your father get transferred to Florida or did he go down there because Gambino was down there? Well, the face-to-face meeting with Gambino wasn’t Brooklyn. That was in 1957 or 1958, to be exact about it. Two was when they had my father go down to the Golden Gate Motel. They called it a motel hotel. Yeah. And it was a very unassuming place. It wasn’t a fancy, fancy place. Gambino was the type of individual he did not like to attract attention, unlike John Gotti. He maintained a low profile. So he went to sort of a middle class hotel. Now, the Bureau knew that he was going to be there. My father knew he was going to be there. And they sent my father down from New York to Miami Beach, along with another agent. There was a local agent, and the two of them went to wiretap Gambino. Gambino had left his room at one point during his stay there. He was there for six weeks.
[17:25]This was a six-week wiretapping event. And while Gambino had left the room at one point, he was there with his wife, Kate, too. The FBI sound team got into the room and placed wiretaps into, you remember what they were, Gary, they’re called A-blocks. The A-blocks were a small two-by-two block that were placed on the floorboards where the phone wires were connected. This is what they used back then. They had small microphones that they put in the A-block. There was one A-block that they did that with.
[18:04]That’s how they picked up the sound. On the other side of the wall happened to be my father and another agent from the Miami office. And they were wiretapping with a reel-to-reel tape recorder, round and round and round, the conversations that Gambino had with his lieutenants and his associates that visited him during the course of six weeks. Wow, that was quite an early wiretap or early hidden microphone. And it sounded like it was hardwired, which is a lot better. The wireless just did not work very well back then. The hardwired worked a lot better. and they tied it into that phone line. So was he then, then they ran that directly into the hotel room next door. So they had a direct connection. And so they had real-time information, not record it and listen to it later. Is that what I hear you saying?
[19:02]Exactly. That’s exactly true. Now there are some interesting, very interesting stories. Yeah, that’s my next question. Yeah. What was going on? Why was he down there? Was he down there to connect with somebody in Florida. And I don’t think we said exactly what city this motel was in. Was it Miami or was it Tampa? This is Miami Beach. Okay. So why was he down there? Why was Carlo down there? 62. Well, it was never revealed exactly why he was there. For six weeks, I’m sure the part of it was to to get away from the the colder weather in new york but this was in march this was in march of 1962 so it was colder up in new york many of the mob guys came down to came down to florida you know because now as you know gary miami was an open mob city it was not it did not have a mob family. The closest mob city was Tampa. It was Santos Traficante that ran the Tampa outfit there. But Miami was deemed to be an open city. You could not operate there unless you had permission from the powers that be.
[20:17]With the commission and the Tampa guys to do business down there. There were a lot of mobsters that lived there, guys like Eddie Coco, Joe Bruno, so on and so forth. Many of them lived down there and had homes there. It was never determined exactly why Gambino was there, but it was to conduct mob business throughout his six weeks, to have some, to relax, enjoy the time with his wife there too, and to conduct business as well. Well, two of the guys that visited him mostly was Tommy Greco, a.k.a. Tommy Palmer, along with Jimmy Palmazano. Those were two of his lieutenants. And the interesting story was that one day, the three of them came back from being outside in Miami Beach, and they were being followed too closely, too closely by a couple of FBI agents with cameras.
[21:17]They saw the cameras and they got a little bit too close to them they were taking pictures, Tommy Greco, Tommy Palmer and Jimmy Parmizzano were extremely they were infuriated they come back into the room I want you to envision this this is like a movie on one side of the wall you have these mobsters on the other side of the wall FBI agents listening to them they come back into the room and they’re furious and what do you think they’re talking about they’re talking about those SOPs out there the FBI guys my father’s listening to this the FBI guys those FBI guys were following us they’re taking pictures of us blah blah blah F words this and the FBI should die in hell and all their mothers should rot so on and so forth and Gambino was trying to calm them down a little bit. And long story short, while this is happening, one of them said, it was Tommy. Tommy said, you know, they could be anywhere. Down the street, they’re following. They could be in the next room for all we know. Cut to the other side of the wall. My father’s listening to this. He’s on the headphones.
[22:33]And my father says to his partner, Frank, Frank, I think they’re on to us. They mentioned something about the FBI following them. My father said, why are they following? they’re blowing our cover my father was getting angry he’s telling Frank his partner they’re on to us and Frank is a little bit he’s very nervous about this he gets very nervous my father’s more calm about this Frank is a little more anxious about this and he hears that what are you talking about what are they saying my father has to listen to most of the conversation Gary because they speak Sicilian most of the time time. Frank doesn’t know Sicilian, so my father asked him to listen. He had to get out of the headphones most of the time. He says, they’re out to us. The FBI is out there following too close. Why are these idiots doing this? They’re blowing our cover. Frank eventually, over time.
[23:37]He’s trying to convince my father, maybe we should cut this short. We should cut the feed. And we should cut the operation. My father said, no, we don’t need to be doing that. Because my father’s hearing on the other side of the wall, Tommy and Jimmy getting so upset, they’re moving furniture, trying to find a bug. Yeah. They’re looking in the lab. They were looking under the bed. All of a sudden, Tommy said, he picks up something, holds it up. He said, it was a used condom. He was all like, what’s the place? He said, don’t.
[24:17]Carlo eventually calms him down. He’s a true leader. He starts telling them some funny stories. Calm down. Look, I don’t like it any more than you do, but they’ve got a job. We’ve got a job sort of attitude. So he calmed them down.
[24:39]Eventually, everybody went back to New York. Gambino and his luteus go back to New York. My father goes back to New York as well, too, wraps up the operation. But that is more or less a lot of it in a nutshell.
[25:00]
Joe Valachi Interview
[24:54]If you want to read more of the details, you can catch it in my book coming out soon. That sounds great. Sounds great. You know, one more thing, just a quick little story about his, the, the deal with Joe Valachi when they brought him in Joe Valachi spoke to say, and he was to say, and, and they, your father was going to be the guy that interviewed him. But what happened? Tell us one last little quick story about that, which will be in your book. What are your books? Also, I don’t know which one you’re going to have a series of books of these untold tales. So tell us that story. Well, when Valachi was ready to talk, sing like a bird, he was in the Atlanta penitentiary at that time.
[25:40]Vito Genovese was his boss, the boss of his family. And for some reason, Vito felt that Joe was not being honorable and loyal to him. And Valachi was placed in Atlanta the Atlanta pen for drug related charges, Genovese was also in the pen at the same time Vito was, Joe was getting very very paranoid because he thought that Vito was going to whack him in prison to the point where Joe accidentally killed somebody else thinking that he was going to be the killer of him, so he kills this guy well he got nervous to the point after that, That he told the authorities that if they’re going to whack me, I might as well talk. I might as well sing. So they immediately got him out of there. They knew how important this was. They brought him up to Monmouth, New Jersey, which was an army base. Monmouth, New Jersey. They sequestered him there.
[26:48]He was going to talk to the FBI, ready to sing like a bird. And they were going to have my father talk with him. And Joe was not trusting of the FBI at all and wasn’t trusting of any Sicilians at all in any way, shape, or form. He found out that my father was a Sicilian-speaking Asian, and I didn’t want to speak to any Sicilians. I didn’t trust them. I don’t want to talk. Maybe they’re going to have me whacked. So they had a nice Irish-sounding Asian named Jim Flynn. Lynn. Good night. They brought him in. And what happened, Gary, was they brought Jim in to speak with Valachi. He would, over the course of many days, would get information from him. Valachi would give Jim information about the mob, the hierarchy of the mob.
[27:46]We didn’t understand a lot of that at the time. It wasn’t official, official. show. Yeah, we knew there was a boss and underboss and all of that, but, Here was the nuts and bolts of it. There’s a boss, there’s an underboss, there’s a conciliarity, an advisor, there were the lieutenants, the button men, all of that. We hear that from Valachi, which is important. He’s using Italian-sounding terms like capo regime, capo di decina. The head of regime, a lieutenant, he would bring these Italian terms back to Jim. Jim would bring it back to my father. My father would decipher and translate these things, write all of it down. And that’s how we more or less understood the hierarchy of the mafia, how we work in all the terms of what they meant as well, too. So it was a good working relationship between Jim Flynn and my father at that time. Really? Peter C. Clemente was a hugely important agent in that whole developing the top hoodlum squad and investigation of the five families, especially. I can’t even imagine how much he brought to that investigation. It’s just, he’s never really been recognized as much as he ought to be, I don’t think. Do you?
[29:09]I agree. Joe Pistone, who portrayed himself as Donnie Brasco, he’s a true hero. Joe Pistone is, as well as my father. My father preceded him. So my father and the other agents at that time, not just my father, but many, many, many, many other agents at that time, laid the groundwork for eventually destroying the Mafia. Which really happened around 1980, 1989. This is after the chaos of Gadi. So the mob was really pretty much neutralized at that time. It was people like my father, people like Joper Stone, later on that laid the groundwork for destroying the mob. And we, you know, Gary, we don’t, I remember being young and receiving the information that my father had about the mafia, something called the mafia.
[30:04]
Legacy of Peter C. Clemente
[30:05]And I understood it to be very dangerous. It was very dangerous. These were ruthless people.
[30:14]We depict them as being romantic now. Because, you see, these Italians, these passionate Italians, they know how to tell a story and they’re very likable, but they were very, very, very ruthless people. You did not want to cross them. They would kill you in a heartbeat if you said or did the wrong things or crossed their paths in a way that you should not. So, yes, my father was a hero, definitely an American hero that should be learned about as a part of American history. Truly, truly, truly was. I admired men like that. I worked with some of them when I first went in the intelligence unit. And, you know, they just, wasn’t for them, we wouldn’t have known anything. Think they were the ones that that built you know the knowledge base because they had no knowledge when your father started in the 60s in kansas city the local police had no knowledge didn’t pay attention the fbi had no knowledge about who these guys were just had rumors but had no knowledge so these guys got in and they built that knowledge base that then allowed the future investigations all the way up to the commission case in the end and and the family secrets in in Chicago, otherwise those cases had never happened.
[31:33]Exactly, exactly. Well, you know, the FBI and the local police at that time were my father was a part of all of that. And you remember this too during your career. Those people at that time, Gary, they were salt of the earth people. My father’s generation was a part of the greatest generation. These were World War II guys. I met these agents. They were solid as a rock. They were people that you really, really enjoyed being around. Family, they were family men. They had good careers.
[32:09]Wives, children. The 1950s, nothing was better at that time. Now, there are many stories I could tell you about the agents that did have problems. You know, they were human beings just like everybody else. There were people that were, as you know too, you’re working. Other law enforcement people, maybe they drank too much. Maybe they had problems with seeing too many women. That’s part and parcel of being human beings. But for the most part, the FBI and law enforcement back there, they were salt of the earth people, dedicated people. It has changed. We don’t want to get into too much of that right now. But I think you and I believe that much of it has changed. change as far as the integrity and the core values of what.
[32:58]What what they have now as opposed to before yeah it’s just i don’t know it’s just different now i i don’t know it’s it is different for sure so gary clemente untold tales from the fbi top hoodlum squad i really appreciate you coming on the show and telling about your father peter c clemente who was you know no doubt an american hero and an unsung american hero but guys you get this book, you’re going to read about this unsung American hero and really the good solid basis for organized crime and why it was important to investigate them and the early guys,
[33:39]
Closing Remarks
[33:37]the problems they had and the great exciting stories. You can make two or three movies out of all this. I think, Gary, you say you’ve been a screenwriter. Maybe we’ll get a screenplay out of some of these stories, your father.
[33:49]There’s definitely some stories I could tell you. All right. Guys, don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles. And if you are out there on those streets, watch out for motorcycles. And if you have a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service, be sure and go to that VA website and get that hotline number. If you have a problem with drugs or alcohol, which goes along with PTSD many times, our friend, former Gambino soldier, Anthony Ruggiano, is a drug and alcohol counselor down in Florida now. And he has a hotline on his website. So that’s, if you go into get rehab with Anthony Ruggiano, give me a call. I want, I’m going to put you on the show. Tell me all about it. You probably won’t, but anyhow, don’t forget like, and subscribe and keep coming back. Hit the podcast. Facebook group up. Got a lot of good people that put on stuff on that. A lot of good mob conversations and we’re on Facebook and the Apple app. Give me a review. So thanks a lot guys. And thanks a lot. Gary Clemente.